Not so thinly disguised anti-semites

on Apr 25, 2004

If by "breaking through clouds of ignorance" you mean advocating a "detached view" of genocide or atrocity, then consider me permanently overcast. No amount of elevated vocabulary can conceal the revolting depths of your philosophy.

32

Tangled Wishes

on Apr 25, 2004

I'm with you greywar.

Well said.

~Anne

33

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

When you think about it, all those racist jokes (including that one about a thousand Jews in the ashtray) and porn on the Internet and tentacle rape porn from Japan actually contain deep satirical imagery and social commentary.

Probably not, but if you can't appreciate the differences and similarities between pornography and dark humor, it doesn't make a difference. Think about the cartoon again. Who was it making fun of? The Jew? The person who is trying to knock him into the oven? The society that holds a holocaust festival (The holocaust museum?)? Is there a 'persecution complex' that causes scenes like these to become social mythology? Think of the movies, and the rather embarrassing (IMO) Hollywood style holocaust dramas (Schindler's List, the Pianist, Life is Beautiful) that the Oscars have celebrated. Everything's fake, I tell you, and you are the fool for solemnly following along.

Would trivializing the matter stop it from happening? I don't see how it would. As for making it go away, many things would go away if people stopped taking it so seriously, like the trauma from rape, paedophilia, murder, and other atrocities done to people. Perhaps we should start calling those who are traumatized or offended by such acts to get over it and stop being so simple-minded.

Again, the comic is not trivializing it - it does not have that power - it is satirizing the way society's expression of the Holocaust trivializes the event by solemnizing it. For solemnity is such a conclusive, funereal, and boring way of thinking. Fine as a social formality, but social formalities are dead, and history is alive. The next Hitler won't wear a moustache, and he probably won't cremate bodies. The comic doesn't want us to think in the same tired patterns of victimization and travesty, It wants us to think about ourselves.

34

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

If by "breaking through clouds of ignorance" you mean advocating a "detached view" of genocide or atrocity, then consider me permanently overcast. No amount of elevated vocabulary can conceal the revolting depths of your philosophy.

Actually I was thinking in simpler terms: You quoted me out of context, mislabeled me, and now you are assailing my philosophy. Nihilism is a spiny urchin that you can't swallow. I'm fine with that, but don't go calling me a KKK or a holocaust appologist/denier.

35

greywar

on Apr 25, 2004

You called yourself those things with your own posts son. I just licked the label and placed where it was so obviously required.

36

messybuu

on Apr 25, 2004

Probably not, but if you can't appreciate the differences and similarities between pornography and dark humor, it doesn't make a difference. Think about the cartoon again. Who was it making fun of? The Jew? The person who is trying to knock him into the oven? The society that holds a holocaust festival (The holocaust museum?)? Is there a 'persecution complex' that causes scenes like these to become social mythology? Think of the movies, and the rather embarrassing (IMO) Hollywood style holocaust dramas (Schindler's List, the Pianist, Life is Beautiful) that the Oscars have celebrated. Everything's fake, I tell you, and you are the fool for solemnly following along.

I guess there is a difference between pornography and "dark humor" if you don't want to place as much energy in finding metaphors in pornography as you do in badly drawn comic strips.

Again, the comic is not trivializing it - it does not have that power - it is satirizing the way society's expression of the Holocaust trivializes the event by solemnizing it. For solemnity is such a conclusive, funereal, and boring way of thinking. Fine as a social formality, but social formalities are dead, and history is alive. The next Hitler won't wear a moustache, and he probably won't cremate bodies. The comic doesn't want us to think in the same tired patterns of victimization and travesty, It wants us to think about ourselves.

And yet laughing and making bad jokes about the genocide of Jews will not trivialize it?

37

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

You called yourself those things with your own posts son. I just licked the label and placed where it was so obviously required.

Well if the label of KKK is required in situations where truthfulness is not desired, I guess you can justify your words perfectly. However I don't think falsities are desirable in this case. You are a perfect example of someone with the holocaust complex who zealously protects its place in the holy temple of unassailable solemnity. I wish to free myself of that burden, so you spew venom and lies at my face. But it is you, not I, who does poor justice to the holocaust by worshipping it as you do. It is you who cannot properly distinguish who is the racist and the dangerous nazi sympathizer, and who is the mere intellectual provocateur. And so you play right in to what I am saying. If you live in a world of 'us vs. them', of good, sensible, religious minded people vs. horrible, racist, deniers of truth, you can count me out of your cosmology. I don't fit, and I don't want to.

38

greywar

on Apr 25, 2004

You fit lad, I just think that you might find it more comfortable in the "them" camp. Enjoy their campfire if they will let you in, but they have a bad history of not allowing outsiders in. Outsiders tend to be killed in horrific ways, fortunately those of "us" will at least attempt to stop this from happeneing even to someone like you. And should you ever fall to one of "them" rest assured that even though we don't agreee, I will not take the "detached view" of the incident. Pull the covers over your head and snuggle up son, even though you can't seem to figure out how that blanket of protection got there or who provided it.

39

messybuu

on Apr 25, 2004

If you live in a world of 'us vs. them', of good, sensible, religious minded people vs. horrible, racist, deniers of truth, you can count me out of your cosmology. I don't fit, and I don't want to.

As opposed to simpleminded fascist fools who will start another holocaust because they do not tolerate ridiculing such a serious situation versus the righteous and enlightened people that will prevent another holocaust by trivializing such atrocities?

40

dharmagrl

on Apr 25, 2004

I'm fine with that, but don't go calling me a KKK or a holocaust appologist/denier.

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

41

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

And yet laughing and making bad jokes about the genocide of Jews will not trivialize it?

I wouldn't do it in front of children who might not understand, but a rational adult should be able to satirize (trivialize?) the holocaust complex without losing sight of the fact that the Holocaust was unjust, and justice must be promoted. Justice, mind you, and not slavery before law and the burden of morality. Don't mean to be such a Nietzchean, and I'm in many respects playing the devil's advocate here (so that you might understand that the comic wasn't racist), but I believe true justice is a product of creation, not obedience. Character should strive to outgrow morality, to will its own justice into the world, to be free and creative. It is no good to be subject to the codes and sermons of authority. This is all easier said than done, but from the vantage point of the rebellious college student with too much time on his hands and the desire to elevate his character above the common and banal, it's quite an appealing idea.

42

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

You fit lad, I just think that you might find it more comfortable in the "them" camp. Enjoy their campfire if they will let you in, but they have a bad history of not allowing outsiders in. Outsiders tend to be killed in horrific ways, fortunately those of "us" will at least attempt to stop this from happeneing even to someone like you. And should you ever fall to one of "them" rest assured that even though we don't agreee, I will not take the "detached view" of the incident. Pull the covers over your head and snuggle up son, even though you can't seem to figure out how that blanket of protection got there or who provided it.

Huh? You don't make sense, bubba. I don't want to be one of 'them', and I never will be. Your scenario is rubbish, and 'us' has a strange tendency to become 'them' without realizing it. Look at Ariel Sharon. You'll see. Therefore I detatch myself from both. I am 'me', I am not protected by your slave morality, I am protected by my own intellect and understanding.

43

messybuu

on Apr 25, 2004

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

Let's also not forget that we have fascist mentalities for not applauding the comic as a work of art.

44

Saint Ying

on Apr 25, 2004

The what would you have us call you? I have some choice phrases I think would fit you nicely.

You could call what I have expressed nihilism. Nihilism, please note, is not the intellectual phenomenon that produced fascism. It's unique because it is completely harmless when used for social criticism (though for purposes of leading a healthy social existence, it can be very alienating), but people still find it extremely threatening. It goes straight for the jugular of common values, but Nietzche's existentialism advocates and demonstrates that humans can be better people when they are free. Unfortunately, this is only applicable in practice to those who don't have to deal in the currency of morality as part of their social existence: artists, intellectuals, maverick entrepreneurs, and other creative dispositions. Still, I think it's perfectly valid social criticism.

45

dharmagrl

on Apr 25, 2004

You could call what I have expressed

No, I asked what you would have us call YOU.

artists, intellectuals, maverick entrepreneurs

Those were NOT high up on my list.