Put your money where your mouth is or pay the piper!
Published on May 27, 2004 By greywar In Politics

     I frequently find myself being told either by individuals in conversation or informed by the media that most violent acts or unpleasant things in life are the action of the "vocal minority" or "extremist groups" who do not represent the "silent majority". This tired old saw is trotted out for everything from the reasons why the Democratic party is being hijacked by the left, the excuse for Islamic terror groups, to why Americans are fat bastards. Frankly I am tired of it. I will allow it has *some* uses within your own social groups. For instance when democrats talk amongst themselves about their party then by all means use the argument as an incentive to incite action. When you are talking to non-party members and use it as an explanation of why some recent statement was made or whathaveyou it loses it's impact. Police up your own chosen social group or get lumped in with them.

     Recently Muggaz wrote an article depicting a possible future terror attack by U.S. based extremist groups. In the comments another analogy was drawn using the KKK as an example group. This perfectly illustrates my point. The reason that I don't buy into the agument is that the US doesn't *let* it's extremist groups run rampant on others nations soil! We keep the KKK here and well under wraps. They do not bomb Africa or target "jew-lovers" globally. As soon as white folks got tired of being associated with these psychopaths we as a society crushed them out to avoid the possible repercussions of allowing them to continue unabated. Enlightened self-interest. We as a society decided long ago that we keep our problems solved within our own borders. Our Christian fundamentalists are not out there flying passenger jets into Muslim owned skyscapers. None of these things happen. Yet the Muslim world seems to think that they get a pass by having someone giving a CNN interview condeming each recent terror act. Lip service is easy, actual action is difficult.

     You folks get no more passes from me. If you are *truly* the "silent opposition" and not the "non-active supporters" or teror hows about actually moving your dead asses and stopping your own fucking neighbors? Take an example from Abu Ghraib, when that miserable bunch of fucking retards were exposed as shit-floaters in the US gene pool, we stepped on them! There were no parades on the "American Street" like we see from your side of the house. When we find a nest of domestic vipers in our national house they get squashed and fast. We don't wait for you to deal with our problems, so why would you think our patience with you would be infinite?

     If someone who lives in your apartemnt as your roommate is pissing off your neighbors it will become incumbent upon *you* the person nearest them to reign them in. If you don't, guess what? Eventually you will pay the price right alongside them. This is the lesson we learned long ago. As an older civilization it is amazing to me that the Arab world has not learned this. Or perhaps they know it quite well and simply have no desire to flush out the vipers from their ranks? Something to think about. *Before* you get the eviction notice that your buddy earned you.

     note: these were just easy targets for the venting of spleeange. the argument easily applies to right wing or any other brand of "extremists" who are tolerated or tacitly encouraged by the "silent majority".


Comments (Page 4)
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on May 31, 2004

But it is imperative that the ignorant and disgraceful be punished for erroneous thinking.


That'd be why you have a negative score, then.


If they are not punished and humiliated, they will make the same mistakes over and over again.


Obviously not a lesson you've learned yourself.

on May 31, 2004

Saint Ying: I don't think you realize how out of touch with reality you are.  When CBS News interviews me next week, I'll be sure to keep in mind your words though. .  You apparently don't realize that intelligence has nothing to do with having opinions that correspond to your particular view points.

The FACTS in this particular discussion are readily available to those who actually wish to research them rather than wallow in their own anti-American ignorance.  Groups like Al Qaeda aren't noble. They're just hate groups similar to the KKK and the reasons they strike have little to do with the imagined evil deeds of the United States you dream of (or real bad deeds for that matter).  Al Qaeda and their ilk are violent racist organizations that despise our culture for what it stands for and wishes to eradicate it from the face of the earth through violence -- first in the middle east and later throughout the world.

The US doesn't need to "understand" Al Qaeda any more than the US needed to understand Japan's motivations for attacking Pearl Harbor. It is up to the one who is liable to suffer the most to learn from history.  The atomic bombing of Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) are the end points that trace their beginnings to Pearl Harbor. One can argue that the deaths of over a million Japanese civilians was an overreaction to the loss of 2,500 people (mostly sailors) in a military base attack.  But ultimately, that's not something Americans have to worry about. It is the one doing the attacking that should be reading up on history.  The reaction to 9/11 is signifcant and far-reaching and should be an object lesson to those would would perpetuate terrorism against the United States. For after all, there have been zero terrorist attacks against the US since 9/11 while on the other hand Al Qaeda is living in caves in the mountains of Pakistan, Saddam is gone, and Taliban now without a country to rule. 

From the US's point of view, therefore, there is little evidence to show why the US needs to "understand" the question "why do they hate you". I don't care. It might be interesting in an academic sense but on a practical level, it doesn't matter. It never matters. If you knew anything of history, you would recognize that the why someone attacks you never matters. It only matters that they did. Nation states aren't individuals. They are collectives. They react as collectives. They cannot do otherwise and never do.

It is far more effective for the middle east to clean up its culture of death and violence than try to convince Americans that it somehow "had it coming" because the US supported Israel or because it had a US base in Saudi Arabia or some other lame ass argument for justifying the mass murder of innocent people. Let us remember, after all, that 9/11 was PLANNED during the Clinton administration who was about as benevolent to the Muslim world as can be realistically expected.

But all that aside, I can find far more justification as to why Japan attacked Pearl Harbor than to muddle through the bullshit arguments as for why 9/11 occurred. Pearl Harbor was attacked in response to specific US actions with specific goals in mind.  By contrast, 9/11 happened for very nebulous reasons with very nebulous (and unrealistic) goals. And at the end of the day, Al Qaeda is no government in waiting. It's just another pathetic violent hate group more akin to a KKK out of control than any sort of legitimate organization.

If you were more intelligent, you would realize that your ability to convince people of the validity of your point of view rests on two things:

a) How persuasive you can make your arguments

and

your ability to get those arguments out into the general population. 

You fail on the first item because you make personal insults towards those who disagree with you even when they obviously are not ignorant. You may not agree with me but I obviously do know the subject matter. I don't really need your validation to know that I'm familiar with these matters and qualified to speak with some knowledge on them from having spent years following these events and researching the backgrounds.

You fail on the second part because by attacking people like me, who control sites like this, your ability to get the word out is diminished substantially. I can make you disappear from this site with a single click. You have nothing to gain by intentionally antagonizing me. And in fact, you rely on the very tolerance that you show so little of in order to even get your word out.  It is that tolerance that allows you to have many people exposed to your opinions rather than being just another lunatic on a fringe site like Democratic Underground spewing their extremist drivel on their forums that few normal people read.

on May 31, 2004

Obviously not a lesson you've learned yourself.


Give it a rest drahmagrl, I have nothing against you or your kind, although my only criticism is that you had ought to use your words more powerfully and more freely, possibly in defiance of codes of 'proper' internet discourse, and certainly it is not good to criticize those neo-romantics among us who choose to use lots of words and lots of powerful words, while you yourself only respond with common one liners that are next to meaningless.

That'd be why you have a negative score, then.


Never have too much faith in the system, it is less worthy of respect than the lowliest of men. Of course I wouldn't expect you to agree, being someone who is apparently indebted to the system for holding you in such high esteem.

on May 31, 2004

Out of respect for your blog and subsequent threads, Greywar, I'm not going to respond to any more of St Yings's lunacy.  Sorry that it went this far.

on May 31, 2004

I'm just waiting for the excuse to ban him entirely.

on May 31, 2004
I'm just waiting for the excuse to ban him entirely


Yeah - his opinion is different from yours... which means it is not valid at all... must be time to ban.

(sorry Greywar)

BAM!!!
on May 31, 2004

I'm just waiting for the excuse to ban him entirely.


Hopefully, that won't be too far off. 

on May 31, 2004

Yeah - his opinion is different from yours... which means it is not valid at all... must be time to ban.


Sorry Greywar.....


Muggaz, it has nothing to do with that.  It has to do with being disrespectful, period.  If Brad banned everyone who disagreed with him, I think that you'd have been gone a while ago. 

on May 31, 2004
You know Muggaz, given that I regularly post articles to the front of the page that I totally disagree with, I am a bit hurt that you would make the charge that I would ban someone for having an opposing opinion.
on May 31, 2004
Brad,

Saint Ying is just passionate - I am sure he means no disrespect to you personally at all... to paraphrase you mate - thicken thy skin.

He is merely presenting an opinion from the other side, and i think it maybe a bit to hot for you to handle... As the owner of the site, I guess I cant complain, but saint Ying has nothing on the amount of disrespect i have seen you display to me and others... We get over it.

When you sincerely beleive that Saint Ying is happy that 9/11 happened, and that terrorist acts occur, then you can ban him from the site... because that is what you have said to him in a round about way - you are implying he loves terrorists... not only is that unfair, but it is disrespectful as well.

BAM!!!
on May 31, 2004

Saint Ying is just passionate


I'm sooo sick of hearing  the 'just passionate' line trotted out when people get rude and disrespectful.  That's a lame excuse for rudeness.

on May 31, 2004

You're sure he means no disrepect? Have you READ what he's written? Of course, didn't you think _deleted was fine too?

I have a thick skin already. Otherwise I wouldn't put up with you, after all.   Muggaz, I've said this before and it bears saying again: It matters not to me whether people have blogs or not. Those people who I think really contribute to the community in a positive way move up in access. I make no pretense of being fair or objective about it.  I don't need a tribunal to rule whether Saint Ying is a "nice guy" or not. In my view, he's incredibly disrespectful and rude. I TRY not to be disrespectful or rude to people. Sometimes I fail at that and those users have the ultimate freedom - they can leave the site. I would if the admin of a site was repeatedly disrespectful and rude to me.  But, as a practical matter, I can't "leave". So my option is to make the person being disrespectful and rude to me leave.

on May 31, 2004

Me thinks Muggaz is much closer to his third type of American without realizing it. He doesn't care what other people think. In fact, he shows pride in not caring what people think. And he doesn't seem to show any consideration as to what would be the logical outcome if people like _Deleted and such were allowed to just run amok (i.e. the kind of world that his children would have to deal with).  Of course, he's not an American so that gets him off the hook on a technicality.

Tying this into Greywar's article -- when people start attacking the messenger instead of the message a good threat can veer off topic as we've seen here.  That's one of the reasons why I black list flamers so readily.

on May 31, 2004
Me thinks Muggaz is much closer to his third type of American without realizing it.


Just well I dont really trust your character judgement Brad... Of course I have read what he has written, and I can ceratinly imagine his frustration when dealing with you and your one tracked mind.

Tying this into Greywar's article -- when people start attacking the messenger instead of the message a good threat can veer off topic as we've seen here. That's one of the reasons why I black list flamers so readily.


Can you just read that again, and then look at your own posts?

I'm sooo sick of hearing the 'just passionate' line trotted out when people get rude and disrespectful. That's a lame excuse for rudeness


Funny you should say that Dharma... here I am thinking you are a passionate person, and you would understand a little better... I guess I am not a good a judge of character as I previously mentioned...

back to the drawing board I guess....

BAM!!!

on May 31, 2004

here I am thinking you are a passionate person, and you would understand a little better... I guess I am not a good a judge of character as I previously mentioned...


Yeah, I guess you're not.  Neither am I apparently.


Being passionate does not negate your ability to put forth your passion in the written word without resorting to name calling and derogatory remarks.  In fact, it should further your cause to NOT resort to that kind of behaviour.


 

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