"Europeans travel to other European countries which is akin to Americans traveling to other states."

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"How many products and goods and services can really say they're European?"

The same could be said of the United States. That is if you've shopped at Walmart lately, and bothered to look at a label with the prefix MADE IN ...

"Since the Jews did not rain down destruction on Nazi Germany IN any form, prior to their persecution."

Neither did "the Muslims" do anything to us. It's interesting how we tend to go out of our way to think in terms of individuals when we talk about the King David Hotel bombing, or the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Granted Jews don't often commit violence in the name of religion, but they do, just as Christians and others do.

I don't see people very often saying "the jews assassinate" or "the jews bomb hotels" without someone jumping on them with both feet. Yet, we have to fear "the Muslims"? Come on. Every other nation in Europe is on a bender trying to outlaw the veil in public or trying to hold back their neo-nazi movements from all out war on Muslim immigrants. You really think the average Muslim is something to worry about?

What trends are Europe at the forefront of?

Fashion, ecological maintenance of the planet, safe and effective nuclear energy providing the bulk of their energy resources, light rail.

Just off the top of my head. Of course none of these are important to the world.

"Nation states or collections of nation states influence the world either through cultural power, economic power, or mlitary power. Does Europe really have any of these things anymore? I'll grant it has cultural power in the form of inertia and in the form that the United States exerts cultural power that was based on European principles (that Europe has largely long since abandoned)."

Would you not say that most of the time when America is successful in the world the aims and goals of American policy are economic stability in focus, and promoting peace in the world? I'd have to say that we do both of those things on a much more ideological scale then Europe. Maybe most Europeans are content to let the rest of the world live how they want to live.

Could you define what European cultural principals that they have long since abandoned? I'm curious as to what you mean there.

"Europeans have a lot of opinions. I provided evidence to support my opinion (or at least a rationale). What is the European rationale for thinking that individual Americans only think of themselves? Americans individually give far more time to charity, volunteer far more time to ohters. Heck, they give a lot more blood than Europeans."

I think the European concept isn't that Americans aren't generous, but they think that we aren't as generous to the the rest of the world as we are neighborly to each other as Americans. Also I think that the reality between being European and American is different, since European governments deal daily with the foreign governments, and must cooperate, that this is reported in the media much more often, rather then in the United States, where we can choose between working with another nation or going alone, since we have the power to do so in many cases.

"Like Cacto mentions, the question isn't whether Europe is dying. The question is whether Europe's native culture is strong enough to turn the Islamic immigrants into cultural Europeans fast enough to stave off the death of Europe as we know it. And what I think will happen is that in 100 years from now Europea will be largely Islamic instead of Secular."

Yeah? Demographics are only accurate the moment they were collected, and considering that things change in a dynamic setting, of which the world is, that is to be expected. Why is the culture of Europe being changed necessarily a bad thing? Has our culture in the United States not benefited consistently from growing and melding? Hasn't the diversity increased and with increased diversity made it a more enriched place to be?

"Germany is not the world's largest exporter. More to the point, Germany gets to count sales to France and UK and Poland and Italy as "exports" which really distorts the reality. Again I'll get to the main point: How much stuff is Europe exporting outside of Europe?

Your response represents a typical European attitude on the matter -- Europe is a single entity for the purposes of your argument -- when you count GDP"

So how about some stats on the exports from the EU as a whole to the outside of Europe community? I'm sure you have those somewhere Brad no?

"Having lived in several EU countries and a few US states I can say that bickering between Europe and America is pitiful because it is based on fear and loathing not real facts."

Seems to be a common theme among many different discussions on facts and perceived facts.

One thing about Germany and Siemens in specifics, we do a fair bit of work that is outsourced from Siemens to America and then sent back to Siemens, and sold back to American hospitals.

That work under the wholesale cost, isn't counted in an export figure nor should it be, the materials are taxed of course as is the labor, but the product as sold final cost, retail, thats where the export cost is. As you probably know, a lot of manufacturing jobs, meaning a lot of manufacturing work, has gone to Mexico, Canada, as well as Europe. Why Europe? Because European manufacturing standards, ISO and such, generally set the bar along with Japan, in the world.

American companies make lots of things, as do Europeans, but a lot of the middle class income type jobs, have gone to Europe because they can be performed there, for less, beyond that from there they are again moved to China, which has the greatest quantity of available cheap labor, once standards rise in China, which is inevitable, a lot of the dynamics of that 'workload' shift will be shifted back up the chain of moving jobs, so America will bleed them off slower, or even create them, as well as places like Germany.

Germany is also a very highly skilled workforce in the scientific communities, as has been true for a long time. Certainly per capita investment in science education, and patents, and skills, and nobel prizes and such belong to Germany. Europe as a whole, offers plenty of necessary goods to the world market. To suggest irrelevance, is pretty meek.

"To me, this debate (if you can call it that) seems pointless. Just a bunch of stubborn Americans arguing with a bunch of stubborn Europeans."

Agree, but nobody would have it any other way, except the Muslims who are out to get us all right? !

"If an alien anthropogist were studying different cultures, what do you think they'd make of the continent of Europe? A group of nation states that had a massive lead over the rest of the world 200 years ago but today leads in virtually no major industry."

They'd conclude that Europeans are very advanced considering they've survived 2 world wars which were largely fought right in the middle of the civilian population each time. Since such time they've led the world in clean energy, and keeping incomes level so as to not provide basis for social injustices, yet still provide incentive for innovation that helps everybody, while also leading the world in promoting peace and working non violently to compromise keep their people safe.

If it was an Alien Anthropologist from the "galactic America", he'd say Europeans are stupid, and wimps, and don't drive big enough cars, so they must have no redeeming values.

"Europe IS slowly being taken over by Muslims."

I love this, how many politicians in Europe are Muslim, I'll give you the whole EU. What's the rate of growth?

"I see it all coming together. There is a vortex over Jerusalem and it is rapidly growing in intensity as we move forward to what I believe is the last chapter of this age. "

Yup, and pretty soon the Earth is going to suck so bad, into itself that we'll be inside out.

"What we are seeing, like a plug being pulled from the sink, is how all the nations are getting sucked toward the center like water rushing down the drain. What we are seeing right before our eyes is this circular motion drawing evil and wicked men and nations toward Israel."

Yeah close enough.

"Many are watching a man named Javier Solona out of Spain. I'd keep an eye on him if I were you. Do your research. If you know anything of biblical prophecy...this man will make your hair turn white."

You do that for us KFC.

Back to European and American interdependence, the world economy is completely connected, which is why when stocks are up here they are up over there, when the economy is spinning well in one part of the world it is likely spinning well in another. The economy is a big circle of spend, make, sell, buy ; buy = spend. There isn't anything that is going to stop that, not Islam, not the end of the world, unless you truly believe anything man can do, or supernatural I guess, short of nuclear weapons employment can stop anything dynamic on the Earth. In other words, you have about as much chance stopping this economic wheel, as you do of stopping electrons from orbiting atoms.

The fact that oil and water dont mix, and baking soda and vinegar do, doesn't ever change. Neither do the non-dynamic forces that govern this existence. Things that are moving and changing will continue to do so. Things that never move won't.

"Will Europe be forced to don the hijab and accept their status as Dhimmi under the approaching New Caliphate? Is it possible that this could force a return to European fascism and nationalism as a counter?"

Only if you give into irrational fears, slip into a deep and dreary world, in a small 6x10 cell and nobody gives you your medication at the asylum while you are bound in your straight jacket of hypocrisy and shame.

RFID

Yeah we'll never need that anywhere in the world, pioneered in the great land of Europe.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ygCJPbjV0

""Many are watching a man named Javier Solona out of Spain. I'd keep an eye on him if I were you. Do your research. If you know anything of biblical prophecy...this man will make your hair turn white."

I've read about him. He's even done some stuff I find admirable. What exactly makes you worry about him? Did he dress up as Santa Claus?

P.S. It's Javier Solana.

This must be what KFC is talking about. There seems to be some of the same sentiment here. Thank God for Google or I'd never know about all these wackos.

ecological maintenance of the planet, safe and effective nuclear

These 2 are just so much BS.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vadmK1WlK2k

Yes there is much to be concerned about and they are changing the face of Europe. I will fight to my death before I don a hijab so you can imagine what the future holds for all of us if we don't act now! Here in Belgium public schools have acquiesced to halal food, separate swimming times for boys and girls and separate toilets for Muslims and "infidels" - DAMN is this what we want? Ruled by the Shaariah??? Not me, I don't want a theocracry! It's bad enough that we don't really separate Church and State...

Cheers
Tisha
tishabest@hotmail.com

Yes there is much to be concerned about and they are changing the face of Europe. I will fight to my death before I don a hijab so you can imagine what the future holds for all of us if we don't act now! Here in Belgium public schools have acquiesced to halal food, separate swimming times for boys and girls and separate toilets for Muslims and "infidels" - DAMN is this what we want? Ruled by the Shaariah??? Not me, I don't want a theocracry! It's bad enough that we don't really separate Church and State...

Cheers
Tisha
tishabest@hotmail.com

"These 2 are just so much BS."

Really Dr.? Have not the majority of the European nations signed the Kyoto emission reductions act, whether or not it would cripple their economy, do not a greater percentage of Europeans use mass transit, which has been proven to provide lower per capita emissions, do not the French get the majority of their electric power from nuclear fission energy?

I would have to say the Europeans are at the forefront of many different ecological developments. In the United States, in order for an effort to be adopted in an effort to save the environment, there has to be a major BUCK on the back end AND it can't compete with any well established lobbying force in this country. So you tell me, why the Europeans are farther along at developing an emissions free automobile, even though we drive more automobiles per capita, why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are 5-10 years further in development then anything available in the United States. Also tell me why we aren't putting solar cells up onto of the gas station overhangs to collect the free solar energy on a structure already there?

Tell me also Dr. Why fuel economy standards haven't increased even with all of our innovative superiority?

You say SAP is the 4th largest software company. Sure. But 13 of the top 15 are American. Why is that? Europe only has 1 of the top 5 largest auto companies and shares another with the US (Daimler Chrysler). Why is that?

While having the biggest corporations doesn't hurt, I don't think it is everything that counts. I'll take engineering as an example: There are lots and lots of medium-sized businesses in Germany, highly-skilled specialists in their business. They produce and sell in several countries, usually involving Europe, the US and Asia. But many of them aren't stock corporations and not listed anywhere. They aren't very large, but they don't have to be. In fact, their limited size often allows them to react quicker and be "nearer to the customer". I don't have the figures at hand, but IIRC around 75% of all jobs in Germany are in businesses of this "Mittelstand" (most of them not in engineering of course). I think this is different in e.g. the UK or the US. Everything may be bigger in the US, but that doesn't say that it is better at the same time.

I'm not trying to bash Europe. I am trying to understand. It's a continent that once absolutely dominated the world that today can't be bothered to produce most of the things they use and now can't be bothered to even reproduce.

But how many of the US products are really invented, developed and produced in the US? (Coming back to the US trade deficit - maybe less meaningful than it seems though.) With more or less the same reasoning, I guess you could say that we'll speak Chinese on both sides of the Atlantic in 100 years. Oh, and the US presidents might be hispanics by then - but not until we all started praying to Allah in Europe, of course.