From the get-go, the military sets itself up for this kind of debate. Who is responsible for who and to what extent? Beginning in basic training, soldiers are told what to do and when to do it. What to wear, hell, what to eat even. Pretty much all personal responsibility is removed. They're taught to trust their leaders implicitly. Then slowly they are given back responsibility, then not as slowly, given responsibility for other soldiers! The military is excellent at the "Ours not to question why" mentality, and not so good at teaching their soldiers good judgment.

The debate here is not about whether NCO's should be held accounbtable for their soldiers *preventable* fuckups (of course they should. It is not about whether a bad NCO who sets bad examples should be punished for that (if you can read this article and think that I would advocate not punishing someone you have issues with literacy). The debate is whether a soldier (or anyone) can push off *any* part of the blame for their own fuck-ups onto anyone else. That answer is... no. Can leaders be wrong? Fuck yes, does that in any way excuse one of their subordinates for drinking, fucking, or doing other inapporpriate things? Fuck no.

"I slept around cuz the other guys were doing it?" Get real. They slept around because the liked sleeping around. There might be a host of denials post facto but the truth is that their moral character sucked, sucked, and in 95% of American males who have cheated will continue to suck. Their NCO's didn't hold a gun to their head and make them do anything. I don't care if their Commander personally fucked a battalion of Thai hookers in front of formation every day after reveille! Either you have some moral fiber and don't do it yourself or you are a sub-human sheep.

The military is excellent at the "Ours not to question why" mentality, and not so good at teaching their soldiers good judgment.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment here and I intend to do an article on it but it doesn't excuse soldiers from excercising their moral decion making processes. Life sucks and people are often put into situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than the right thing. Doesn't make it right(er) to take the easy wrong over the hard right. Just makes it life.

I left a laborously long comment elsewhere. Read it or don't. I care not. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

greywar: I agree with what you've said in post #17. It has seemed to me that throughout all this you've been defending the failure of the leadership. Thank you for clarifying that. (Oh, I know, I must have literacy issues, right?)

I'm going to ignore the abrasive rant about morality.

Life sucks and people are often put into situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than the right thing. Doesn't make it right(er) to take the easy wrong over the hard right. Just makes it life.

EXACTLY!!!! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY! The nature of things is that there are situations where it is easier to do the wrong thing than it is the right thing. Sometimes it's damn hard.

The leadership should not create situations where it is harder for their Soldiers to do the right thing. THAT is what I am saying. It doesn't alleviate the Soldier's guilt or punishment. It just means that the leadership should set the standard.

OK, and I said I was done before, but there I went again. Apologies. I'm trying my best to leave this thread alone.

I think everyone's responsible for their own fuck-ups and failings. However, I'm afraid I do believe in mitigating circumstances.

For example, while peer pressure doesn't excuse actions, it makes them more understandable. It's understandable if a teenager gets pressured into drinking too much at her after-prom party. But she's still responsible for crashing the car and killing all the passengers, and should be charged with negligent manslaughter at the least, and premeditated murder at the worst.

I am responsible for flunking out of grad school. But hopefully I deserve sympathy from others when I point out that the department chair told me my classmates were smarter than me, and it was a good thing I didn't have a boyfriend because an attached woman's place is to take care of her man. Yeah, he was a demoralizing asshole, but it was still my choice to sleep at least 5 hours a night on rather than working 24/7, and it was my choice to work honestly rather than cheating on tests.

Sometimes you're in a bad situation, and while you have to accept your fuck-up, you also have to forgive yourself because the alternatives were worse. (Not that I think becoming a lush or cheating on your wife are the preferable options.) Just don't blame anyone else, and don't put yourself in that situation again. "Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome."

Ah, there's one.

It is my fault that I flunked out of college. And, now, I'm damned glad I did, or I'd be some Signals Officer in a miserable marriage. Woo.

Thanks, zandperl.

I think Grey and Texas Wahine are really getting at the same point, but differing on some of the semantics in how they expressed them. I agree with you Grey that people are responsible for their own actions. I'm a HUGE fan of personal responsibility and accountability. I think that if you screw up, you should own it. I also think that if you do a great job, you should get the reward, and not necessarily have to share it. You wanna bust your ass and work 2 or 3 jobs to get the nice things in life? Go for it. You shouldn't be penalized for being successful, and people shouldn't lay guilt trips on you like, "You should share your good fortune with those who haven't been so lucky." Sure, I admit that luck plays a part in it at times, but I know a lot of people who busted their asses to get good jobs, good paychecks, etc. Why should they have to "share" it with somebody (like Grey or myself) who lacked the self-discipline and self-motivation to improve their lot in life?

Along your original intent in this thread Grey:

I too, am fat, because I can't stop shoving Oreos (TM) down my freakin' gullet, and don't have the discipline to do more than 5 minutes of exercise.

I don't have enough of a relationship with my daughter, because I've failed to take an active role in her life (though I'm working on that...)

I almost live check to check, because I don't have the discipline to say "no" to really cool stuff on sale at Best Buy. I'm working on this one too, but I still find myself buying worthless shit, just to store it in a closet a week later.

Pretty much I suffer from the sin of gluttony. I don't have to deal with murder, adultery, or some of the others, but excessiveness seems to kick my ass on a regular basis.... I recognize it, I own it, and I make daily efforts to fight it.... But, I don't blame anybody else for me not having enough money to take my wife on trips regularly.... I'm at fault for that...

Thanks for the honesty Grey!

OOh, I need to get some stuff off my chest too!

I'm a lazy housekeeper. I'll do it when it needs doing, but not before.

I spend too much of Dave's money. I know that I shouldn't, and I know he'll get aggrivated, but I do it anyway. I've started justifying the things that I buy to myself...and if I can't justify them, I hide them.

I've started justifying the things that I buy to myself...and if I can't justify them, I hide them.

Hahhahhaaha...that's hilarious (in an adorable, squirrel-type way).

Hahhahhaaha...that's hilarious (in an adorable, squirrel-type way).

it's actually working! I'll hide them for a bit, then start using them...and he'll ask where I got them from, and I'll say all innocent-like "oh, I got these ages ago!"...which I did! So, I'm not really fibbing to him.....

it's actually working! I'll hide them for a bit, then start using them...and he'll ask where I got them from, and I'll say all innocent-like "oh, I got these ages ago!"...which I did! So, I'm not really fibbing to him.....

HEYYY! That's a "guy" tactic!

I know someone who hid an Xbox under some clothes for around a year or so.....

hid

What's with the past tense?

Okay, how about this:
I'm a terrible liar. No good at it at all. That's my fault, too.