Should Our Society Endorse Torture?

I hope not. But Getmo had no torture in any case.

Published on June 15, 2005 By greywar In Politics

(Update Version 2.0 : Wanderer's take on this can be found here and I think I finally got that last pesky misspelled instance of "toture" out of this article)

(Update : Torture is insanely difficult to type correctly. I think I got them all now but if not, tough.)

There is going to be a lot of political hay made about the torture occuring at Getmo for months to come and rightly so as the nation has a need to decide on what our torture policy really is. I for one oppose torture under any circumstances. Period. That being said let me finish with this : What happened at Getmo is not torture. It isn't even close to torture. I do not exaggerate when I say that my Boy Scout Initiation Hazing was more rigorous than the treatment TIME outlines here.

I would love to write a pithy commentary on this but I don't have the time or money for the net right now (AAFES can kiss my ass) so I will simply link to Lileks incredible excoriative Fisking of the wretchedly written TIME "piece" here.

Go read them both and then let me know if you think that the treatment in the TIME article constitutes "torture" and also whether you favor torture use in intelligence gathering and if so under what circumstances.

My answers would be :

No. (not even close to torture... go read some real Gulag stories for context)

No. Sinking to torture is unamerican (IMHO) and is an even more slippery slope than censorship.

and None. Ever. Not as a governmentally sponsored activity.

Personally? If I as JoeCitizen had the opportunity to torture a pedofile or rapist in order to save a life (or simply for revenge) I would happily show them just how useful a vivid imagination can be for the creative application of pain. Doing so would make me a criminal of course but Society can not afford to start condoning institutionalized torture (down that path lies madness) so I accept that criminalization.

P.S. Apparently Wanderer is on The Hard Road tour of America's Seediest Truckstops once more. If he makes it three posts in a row I might even re-blogroll him

Comments (Page 3)

greywar

on Jun 18, 2005

Oh yes... also Wanderer has his own views on the matter posted over here. I would also hold his article up as one of the finest examples of blog ettiquette ever. He had a lot of thoughts to post but rather than put up several pages here in a commentary section (everyone here has done a good job of keeping it short and pithy (save me)) he wrote his own article and even went to the trouble of linking back to the article that inspired it. Like a breath of fresh air really

cactoblasta

on Jun 18, 2005

On the AI thing (hehe, also stands for 'artificial intelligence' - the irony kills me, it really does) I think they form an essential part of daily life. Sure they're a little over-earnest and definitely a little too idealistic to follow their every suggestion, but they do fill a valuable role. I'm sure everyone can remember some over-earnest person in their own life stopping them from doing something they shouldn't have. We need that sort of thing even if we dismiss it. It makes sure we at least think about our actions.

ParaTed2k

on Jun 18, 2005

If by "torture" they mean, playing loud Rap music, turning the Air Conditioning up too high, or down too low, and feeding prisoners meals appropriate to their cultural and religious beleifs? Sure, I'm all for it! ;~D

greywar

on Jun 18, 2005

If by "torture" they mean, playing loud Rap music, turning the Air Conditioning up too high, or down too low, and feeding prisoners meals appropriate to their cultural and religious beleifs?

sounds like life in the barracks to me!

ParaTed2k

on Jun 18, 2005

sounds like life in the barracks to me!

Once again we're not supposed to treat terrorist scum as bad as we treat our own troops.

I wonder what kind of puppies know-nothing whiners like the Traitor Durbin would have if they kept the terrorists at the National Training Center, or made them take their dumps in Latrines with now stalls between the toilets!

Until the treatment of the terrorist scum gets worse than an average field exercise at Ft. Bragg, they should just SHUT THEIR MAGGOT INFESTED FACES. ;~D

greywar

on Jun 18, 2005

Once again we're not supposed to treat terrorist scum as bad as we treat our own troops.

again, the vast majority of the planet lacks the context to realize that this is the case.

Outernational

on Jun 18, 2005

would you be willing to undergo the same treatment that the prisoners at gitmo get?

greywar

on Jun 18, 2005

would you be willing to undergo the same treatment that the prisoners at gitmo get?

if you haven't figured it out my friend, I have undergone worse than that before I was even 16. Hell even waterd down basic is harder than that.

Hyperborean Wanderer

on Jun 18, 2005

the vast majority of the planet lacks the context to realize that this is the case.

this is so very true. On my thread Life-Happens mentioned standing in parades. People object to the prisoners being forced to stand for extended periods of time in the sun... Please. Until you've done a battalion change of command on an airstrip in Texas in July, you don't know what you are talking about. It may feel bad while it's happening, but it aint torture, it's just discomfort. Parated is right too. Your average field problem exposes soldiers to worse conditions than the prisoners At Guantanamo experience.

ParaTed2k

on Jun 18, 2005

would you be willing to undergo the same treatment that the prisoners at gitmo get?

Been there, done that (though not at Gitmo). My coldest parachute jump was -10F ground temp (who knows what it was at 1250ft in the Utah Rockies putting our "knees in the breeze" at 120knots). Coldest field exercise was about the same -10F (probably the same exercise, as the contingency exercise after the jump. We slept in sleeping bags in 3/4 inch plywood shelters with nothing in the windows or doorways.

Hottest is a toss up:

The desert of Saudi Arabia (at 130+F, living in a tent with a few fans teasing us with a little airmovement, interrupted by the massive air movement of a sand storm where you can't open your canteen for a few hours, unless of course you want to spend the next few hours after the storm clearing the cement out of it (after not getting the drink you foolishly opened the thing up for in the first place). Come to think of it, isn't that a good description of what most the detainees call "home"?

National Training Center (Fort Irwin, CA), looking over the valley into a fun in the sun spot called "Death Valley", in September. Again, the temp was +130. This time I didn't spend anytime in a tent, since the Self Propelled Artillery moves too quickly for such "luxuries". We made the mistake of sticking one of our powder thermometers (much like a meat thermometer) in the ground one and watched the thing top out at 180F.

The thing is, I never went through Special Forces, Ranger, Marine Force Recon, Air Force PJs or Navy SEAL school (although I was Airborne), so I can say with all confidence that I was nowhere close to having it as bad as it gets. Every other vet out there can vouch for that.

So, Mr. Outernational, unless you can find evidence that those poor little detainees are being put through anything close to what my (and my fellow troops) called our "JOB DESCRIPTION", I'm sorry, but hearing about them getting three hots and a cot, with religious and cultural benefits, I'm just not really that impressed with the lies of a few know-nothing whiners in the Senate, Amnesty International, The ICRC, or anyone else for that matter. The way I see it, those detainees are being treated with kid gloves. Come to think of it, the average Farmer goes through worse than the detainees at Gitmo

chiprj

on Jun 19, 2005

Once again we're not supposed to treat terrorist scum as bad as we treat our own troops.

I remember an exercise where I had to spend a few days at the interrogation tent waiting for repair parts for my truck. When we moved from one place to another, the engineer unit came out and dug the POW hole but the individual Soldiers had to dig their own hasty fighting positions. I was told that the prisoners get the first hole, and it was generally built very big and with overhead cover, before the interrogators built their own 18 inch deep "lay in it and pray it's deep enough" hole. That way if an attack came, they could provide sufficient protection for the POWs, even at their own expense.

cactoblasta

on Jun 20, 2005

Isn't there a difference though? Troops are treated poorly because it's assumed that bad treatment will make them more efficient soldiers. Maybe discomfort makes people angrier? More willing to kill or something? I don't know the theory behind the whole practice. But it's part of training and tradition as you have said.

As the majority of the men in Gitmo and elsewhere haven't been convicted or even charged then they are simply guests of the US government. It's uncivilised to subject a guest to discomfort when it's unnecessary and seemingly ineffective (how many convictions have come out of that prison? How many got sent home a while back? It doesn't seem to be working...)

greywar

on Jun 20, 2005

It's uncivilised to subject a guest to discomfort when it's unnecessary and seemingly ineffective (how many convictions have come out of that prison? How many got sent home a while back? It doesn't seem to be working...)

The effectiveness of the treatment is fairly high actually. Fact is the sucesses that have come from Gitmo don't get press because they are classified. The goverment isn't worried about convictions here (see the thing about jurisprudence) they do however know that prisoners given an apartment, cable, freedom to do what they wish, telephone access, and a law library don't give them squat. Beleive it or not the "comfy chair" technique has had very little sucess in the history of intelligence gathering. Are you really suggesting that it would?

The difference between discomfort and torture is vast folks. I do however agree that extra legal proceedings like these (read as no dues process) over prolonged periods of time are very shaky.

ParaTed2k

on Jun 20, 2005

We are put through the discomforts in training to better prepare us for the discomforts of war. Including any discomforts we may be put through while "guests" of the enemy.

Comfort is not expected at the hands of even the most Geneva respecting of nations.

MasonM

on Jun 20, 2005

Troops are treated poorly because it's assumed that bad treatment will make them more efficient soldiers. Maybe discomfort makes people angrier? More willing to kill or something? I don't know the theory behind the whole practice. But it's part of training and tradition as you have said.

You've obviously never been in the military. Training is to prepare you for combat conditions which are far from comfortable. There aren't many soldiers in the field who do combat in a recliner.

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