Sometimes they don't proofread their own stuff.
Published on December 14, 2004 By greywar In Politics

     The other day on the way in to work at around 0430L I caught an interesting little piece NPR was doing on Brazil and it's implementation of the Kyoto Environmental Protocols. The pice was about 10 minutes long with 9 miuntes and 30 seconds devoted to the lionization of Brazil for it's "progressive move towards using cane alchohol as fuels for their vehicles. Cane fules they explained produce virtually no emissions when compared to gasoline and was cheaper to boot! "Well ain't that grand?" thought I.

     I was even thinking to myself for a few minutes that maybe Kyoto really had something going for it when the closed with the important bit of news in this whole ten minute spiel. In the last 30 secinds they revealed that adoption of Kyoto had led to a huge demnad for cane fields which hjad led to deforestation and land speculation on a scale never seen before. In fact the amount of forest land lost to cane fields (forests are the most important air scrubbers on the planet) far offset any reduction in emissions! Way to go enviro-tards!

9:30 spend telling us how great Kyoto is and 30 seconds on telling us the actual truth. NPR never dissapoints!

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Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 16, 2004
Dr Guy,
I am very familiar with the Kyoto agreement. Try read appendix B of your link. You'll note that the USA was suppossed to reduce emissions to 93% while all EU countries were 92%. That means the EU has to reduce emissions by 12.5% MORE than the US. This is exactly what I have said and contradicts your assertion that the US must clean up more than any other country. The fact is that the US was required to make fewer reductions under Kyoto than other Western industrialised nations, but still refused to join.

Paul.
on Dec 16, 2004
Helix,
the US is the largest polluter on the planet. It releases more CO2 into the atmosphere than any other country. More than 1/4 of all CO2 emissions from the planet come from the USA. Twice as much as from China. Eight times as much as from India. Only the USSR comes close and the US still emites 25% more. But the USSR has signed Kyoto and is reducing it's CO2 levels.

Link

Paul.
on Dec 16, 2004
As for the Brazilian rainforests, I think we can all agree that destruction of these is not good. But individual countries need to start looking at their own emissions and not just blaming the Brazilians. Other countries need to start planting forests of their own and covering their land with as much forest as Brazil. It's very unfair to tell Brazil to stop cutting down trees while we use the maximum amount of our land to make money.

Paul.
on Dec 16, 2004

I'm sure Kyoto didn't specifically tell Brazil to cut down their rain forest. So why is Kyoto bad again - because it's not fair? Because you have to clean up slightly more than your negihbour? What a bunch of whiners. Its the future of the fuckin planet - stop nit picking over it and do something. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want (he'd also want you to stop bombing other countries too, I bet).
on Dec 16, 2004

Dr Guy,
I am very familiar with the Kyoto agreement. Try read appendix B of your link. You'll note that the USA was suppossed to reduce emissions to 93% while all EU countries were 92%. That means the EU has to reduce emissions by 12.5% MORE than the US. This is exactly what I have said and contradicts your assertion that the US must clean up more than any other country. The fact is that the US was required to make fewer reductions under Kyoto than other Western industrialised nations, but still refused to join.

Paul,that is sophistry.  Article 3 clearly states they must reduce to 5% below 1990 levels just like the US.  So Annex B only indicates that the EU has been more lax in controlling polution(and if you have ever been there, you would easily see why).  The cost of the reduction is born equally among Europe and the US, however, the final nail in the coffin is when we go to subsidize the 3rd world efforts to clean up.  As is clearly demonstrable, the US pays the lions share of the UN bills, and these bills would also be placed most heavily on the US.

We need look no further to the current world where we get slammed for contributing 15b for aids research, and the EU skates.  Yet we are the ones being said to be niggardly?

But you did not really address the issue of the accord being bad law.  Sure, Brazil has a right to do with its land as it sees fit.  So do we, except if we sign that bad piece of legislation.  For then our right to determine the optimal use is taken away from Americans and given to some clowns that put Sudan on the Human Rights Commission.

Finally, while everyone talks about tropical rain forrests, the US and Canada are home to the largest exta-tropical rain forest in the world.  And it scrubs as much as the amazon (just not as much as all of SA).  So we could do the same thing that Brazil did, and it would be just as wrong.  So unless and until they come up with some good laws, bad law is worse than no law at all.  And Kyoto is bad law.

on Dec 16, 2004

the US is the largest polluter on the planet. It releases more CO2 into the atmosphere than any other country. More than 1/4 of all CO2 emissions from the planet come from the USA. Twice as much as from China. Eight times as much as from India. Only the USSR comes close and the US still emites 25% more. But the USSR has signed Kyoto and is reducing it's CO2 levels.

For the record, CO2, while called a pollutant, is not.  For if it were, and we eleiminate it, plants will die.  They need it to survive.

And finally, your statement about the biggest polluter is incorrect in many ways.  As a single nation, yes.  But in comparison to the EU, or even on a per capita basis, we are not.

One last item. While CHina does not pollute as much as the US, it is coming from a 3rd world economy to one of the 1st world, and as such is generating more and more pollution each year, both on a total and per capita basis. One day soon, it will pass us just from the shere size of its population. Yet Kyoto places no restrictions on them. Bad Law.

on Dec 16, 2004
For if it were, and we eleiminate it, plants will die. They need it to survive.


In a scientific sense that's not entirely true. Experiments have shown that plants will consume oxygen and produce CO2 instead when there is no CO2 to absorb. Sure it slowly kills them, but at the same time it creates the necessary resources to be reborn. One of those create and destroy things that are so common in nature.
on Dec 16, 2004
Yet Kyoto places no restrictions on them. Bad Law.


What a good reason to not sign a treaty in an attempt to improve the pollution situation. And such a childish one at that. If you expect reciprocity in everything then one wonders why the US even bothers pretending to be noble. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if noone else does it purely because it is the right thing to do. Or don't they teach that in US schools?
on Dec 16, 2004

What a good reason to not sign a treaty in an attempt to improve the pollution situation. And such a childish one at that. If you expect reciprocity in everything then one wonders why the US even bothers pretending to be noble. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if noone else does it purely because it is the right thing to do. Or don't they teach that in US schools?

In US schools, they teach us that bailing water with a sieve is fool hardy.  If we cut our emisionns, and the rest of the world increases theirs, tehn nothing is accomplished.  THAT is what we are taught.

You want to cut emmissions?  Get a good law.  Bad law is worse than no law for it not only does not accomplish its goals, it gives people an unwarranted feel good attitude, about doing nothing.

Is that what they teach you in your schools?  That bad law is better than no law?

on Dec 16, 2004

I'm sure Kyoto didn't specifically tell Brazil to cut down their rain forest. So why is Kyoto bad again - because it's not fair? Because you have to clean up slightly more than your negihbour? What a bunch of whiners. Its the future of the fuckin planet - stop nit picking over it and do something. I'm sure that's what Jesus would want (he'd also want you to stop bombing other countries too, I bet).

It does not matter what Kyoto said, it was what was left unsaid in that regard. Bad law is worse than no law, for it accomplishes nothing, and just stops people from pursuing the right thing.

And it is not the future of the planet.  Earth survived billions of years without man.  It will survive many more billions without them, and thrive.  Dont confuse the 2.

on Dec 16, 2004
Dr Guy,
5% is the minimum but 7% (US) and 8% (EU) are the targets. the point is that your earlier statement that the US must clean up more than any other country was wrong.

Yo are correct that I have not addressed any issues of bad law and I will do so now.

(a) carbon sinks: The Kyoto accords do deal with the issue of maintaining or creating carbon sinks. Reduction or creating of carbon sinks are included in emissions targets with the net aim to use sinks to meet targets. Furthermore as I mentioned above Kyoto specifically allows trading in sinks so that rich countries can pay poorer countries to maintain their forests and thus reduce the target the rich country needds to meet. The US could therefore pay Brazil not to cut down forests and in return not reduce it's emissions. Good Law actually, just not yet in effect (next Feb), so at the moment Brazil is free to cut down all it's rainforests. the sooner Kyoto starts the sooner Brazil has to maintain it's rainforests.

( 3rd World: The Kyoto accords exclude developing countries from having to meet target reduction in this round. They do have to put in place the monitoring and legal apparatus to ensure that they can meet reduction targets in the next round though. This includes China and India, the two largest polluters in this category. While not ideal (many including the US wanted China to meet reduction targets) the nature (large factor is population based and low tech heat and power generation) and level of their pollution (still a tiny fraction compared to the population generating it)defined it a development and thus not yet ready for reduction. All these countries have agreed that in the next round they will meet reduction targets. So while people can complain that China gets to increase polluting, it has agreed to atart putting in place strategies (such as nuclear power stations) to allow for reductions in the next round. Not bad, just not as nice as you may want.

(c) Kyoto targets greenhouse gas emissions and not pollutants. This is because it is designed to focus on climate issues and these are felt to be a major problem. it's nto a bad law because it doesn't deal with these, just a single law in what eventually needs to be a much bigger package. It's a start and a good start.


So I would say that Kyoto is not a bad law. It does have weaknesses and it is only a start. But we need to start somewhere and with or without the US the rest of the world will make a start.

Paul.
on Dec 16, 2004

Dr Guy,
5% is the minimum but 7% (US) and 8% (EU) are the targets. the point is that your earlier statement that the US must clean up more than any other country was wrong.

I will address your other issues when more time presents itself, however the above is wrong.  Annex B states the base year, which is the year the agreement was created, not 90, and represents the fact that Europe has worse polution controls than does the US. The 5% below 1990 levels is the target.  The 92 and 93% are the amount that will need to be cut to achieve those levels.

on Dec 16, 2004
It does not matter what Kyoto said, it was what was left unsaid in that regard. Bad law is worse than no law, for it accomplishes nothing, and just stops people from pursuing the right thing.


Are we right calling it a law? I agree that a bad law is worse than no law but I haven't hear why it is a bad law. I don't see how reducing pollution in any way can be bad. Even in the Brazil case they are a least taking steps to be more enviromentally friendly, even if they do have some set backs. And if there is inadaquaces in the "law", why would you just drop out instead of trying to ratify the problems??? Just say you don't care a lick about the environment and stop hiding behind this "bad law" arguement - because with EVERY law there is going to be people who get around things with loop holes and unfortuante events that occur. No law is perfect - try to give me one instance. You give me a particular law and I will tell you that it has been broke or that it is possible to side step it - this doesn't mean we should throw away this law. Your reasoning is flawed.

And it is not the future of the planet. Earth survived billions of years without man. It will survive many more billions without them, and thrive. Dont confuse the 2.

This is sort of my point. I know that the earth will survive after we are all gone - sorry, the future of MAN. For me it is a matter of trying to keep our race - and life in general - on the planet for as long as possible before the pollution hides the sun and were are unable to breathe the air - you know, the little stuff. But by all means concern yourself more with the size of your GDP or whatever.
on Dec 16, 2004

Kyoto is an example of where warm fuzzy feelings trumped common sense.

Kyoto was unfixable. It was based on a flawed premise - return emissions to the level they were on some arbitrary date. A date picked by European nations who calculated the easiest date for them.  Europeans who haven't been to the US are probably unaware of this but European air quality is deplorable. It's a heck of a lot easier for Europeans to reduce emissions than the US.  Given how urban Europe is, it's a travesty that their per GDP CO2 emissions are even close to a continent spanning distributed population nation like the US. Especially given that a LOT of CO2 emissions come from the processing of natural resources (like refining oil) -- the US is the world's largest producer of oil (most people seem to think Saudi Arabia is -- check out THEIR CO2 emmissions some time).

But let's say the premise was somehow workable. It gave a free pass to China and India.  China is almost certainly already the world's largest polluter in terms of REAL pollutants. Calling CO2 a pollutant is just bizarre. But even there, China will likely be the world's largest producer of CO2 within the next decade or two and they were totally left off this list. 

It's hard enough for US industry to compete against Asian and European nations who have relatively lax air quality laws, but Kyoto would have been a straight jacket on it. The more I read it, the more blatant it seemed to me that it was designed as a way for other countries to gain an economic advantage on the US.

I've also wondered how they track CO2 emissions. You can't do it accurately with satellite monitoring. It's gotta come from industry sources. And I have serious doubts on the accuracy of eastern European, Russian, and Chinese data on these kinds of things.

on Dec 16, 2004
Dr Guy,
While this is a complex issue, I don't believe you are correct. Both the US and the EU are using 1990 as their base year and Appendix B lists their target reductions below that level. To my knowledge only Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Poland have used different base years (as allowed because they are in transition towards market economies). A base year of 1995 can be used for some minor green house gases, but NOT for CO2.

So to reiterate and clarify, the EU has agreed to reduce it's emissions to 8% below the 1990 level. The USA was suppossed to reduce its emissions to 7% below the 1990 level. Therefore your earlier statement that the US must clean up more than any other country was wrong.

Link

Paul.
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