Should you pay so people can have beer and DVD's while not saving?
Published on April 29, 2007 By greywar In Politics

 *edited to include drmiler's dispute over the payout arrangement of Social Security. I will have to do more research on this aspect.   

      There is a nice article over at National Review dealing with Social Security and it's impending collapse. I suggest you read it but in case you don't want to I will summarize the key points:


1. Social Security will not cover its yearly payouts with contributions starting in 2017. Then it would have to rely on the trust fund (where past surpluses were supposed to have gone).

2. The trust fund would keep it running until 2041.

3. The trust fund is already gone (long, long gone actually).

4. This means that in 2017 Social Security is broke. We will either have o lower benefits or raise Social Security deductions from current workers.


     The article goes on to laud the benefits of private retirement accounts. This is fine and true but also not the point. Social Security is not about your retirement. It is about other people's retirement and sundry payouts.

      This is why Social Security is going broke. If you simply paid a given amount of money into the government during your working years and had it doled back out to you when you retire Social Security would be just fine even if it didn't pay you interest on your money.

     The problem is that Social Security takes the money you have paid in and gives part of it away to other people who either didn't pay in as much as you did or even to some who never did or ever will pay in a dime.

      Social Security payments pay around a center line*. If your career was spent earning (and thusly contributing) less than the average American worker you will be paid back more than you contributed. The poorer you were the bigger the difference. Conversely if you were well paid during your lifetime you won't get back out as much as you paid in. Social Security is also used as payments to people who do not and cannot ever pay into the system (like the mentally handicapped).

 

*drmiler disputes this part of the article and has personal experience to back it up:


"This where you're dead wrong! What you get is based "solely" on how much you put in. So much per quarter. When you apply they take what you've paid in over your working years add it up and divide that by 20 (years which is what they figure you'll last). The figure is now your annual income. So you take that and divide it by 12 (months) and that's what you get per month! And don't try to tell me different. I "just" went through this with my wife. So I'm 100% positive on those figures. And it's the same figures with disability. Which I know because "I" went through that!"


     Add in the overhead of a large government agency running the program and you get a negative rate of return overall. Run this way for enough years and add in the fact that people retire earlier and live longer and get what we have: a program that is mathematically unsustainable without even more taxation.

     This is why comparing Social Security to private accounts, IRAs, or 401k plans is senseless. None of those plans are intended to do anything for anyone except the person who pays into them. No one else gets paid, they are invested in solid plans, and they have a lot less admin overhead.

     The only issue to decide is whether you think that people at or above the median income in America owe a retirement to those who live below it or to those that cannot work at all. In essence it is Capitalism vs. Socialism and what balance is to be struck between the two as a moral society.

     My opinion is that the folks like the mentally handicapped should be cared for with monies held separate from anything intended as retirement for anyone. Simply make it a separate tax. Aside from that I do not buy into Social Security for anyone of my generation or later. If you were born after 1970 and can't figure out how to succeed moderately over the course of a 45-47 year working career with the current flood of government subsidies, education programs, and job placement programs then I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.

     Americans seem to believe that they shouldn't have to budget or live within their means. Most of the minimum wage people I worked with over the years drove cars that were more expensive than they needed. They bought fast food for lunch and got their groceries at expensive places like the 7-11 rather than go to the grocery store.

     Many drank, smoked weed, or had other recreational drug habits. They had nice stereos, TV's, and multimedia electronics while collecting food stamps or other government benefits (read as your tax money). I would say that 98% of the minimum wage co-workers I had over the years could have lived comfortably while saving 10-15% of their income.

     There were exceptions to this rule but these were mainly the fast food folks with lots of kids; a personal choice. Almost all of them could have started saving for retirement at age 18 or even sooner since many had worked in for minimum wage since age 14 or 15 (not an upwardly mobile crowd you see) had they simply cut back on non-essentials and saved some money. The issue was not that they couldn't save but rather that they didn't want to make the sacrifices to do so. Should this sort of decision making be paid for by the taxpayer?

     It would have been hard but even working as a pizza guy I could have saved enough for a modest retirement over the course of 47 years. I would have had to lower my current standard of living and cut out most entertainment expenses of course.  I don't think anyone should owe me any money when I am 65 just because I wouldn't do without DVD's, fast food, or a car I shouldn't have bought. You should have to make the right choices to be rewarded.

 

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Comments (Page 5)
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on May 01, 2007
I have rheumatoid arthritis and lupus and several other conditions that prevent me from working full time and qualify me for SSD.When I first started getting ill, I was, like you, working for eight bucks an hour (20 hours a week) and had no health insurance.When one gets sick enough, one finds a way. It took a single ER visit, followed by a single office visit to a family doctor (i had to borrow money to pay for that) and a couple of visits to the free clinic for bloodwork to provide sufficient evidence to SS in order to qualify.


Yep, maybe for a medical condition, but not for mental illness. They might, if your suicidal or homicidal, admit you for three days but then they kick you out on the street and tell you to find outpatient care and a way to pay for your meds. I've been there too LW and was denied SSD.
on May 01, 2007

the other 75 cents go to others (the beauracracy) and are used similarly. in effect they go back into the market where they get back to business owners. those 75 cents do not disappear in the great void, they work and are part of the economy that makes it possible for you to turn $1 into $5. if that $1 is withdrawn from the market there will be no room for you to expand. and your $1 will just sit idle. there will be no need to hire more people.

Ultimately, the $1 confiscated from me by the government is consumed. But the difference is, I can take that $1 and make it into $5.

I take capital and use it to create jobs which in turn creates more tax payers and more opportunity and higher standards of living.

The Soviet Union, by contrast, consumed all of the capital by producers and as a result stagnated.

The reason our standard of living improves is because of millions of people over time taking $1 and making it more than $1.  Socialist countries, by constrast, are simply consumers and their standard of living doesn't improve as quickly or at all.  Talk to someone who's been to Cuba. It's like going back in a time machine to 1950.

on May 01, 2007

there must be a good reason for you to pay more in addition to what the government took. you didnt have to do that. why didnt you use those contributions to create more jobs? according to you, those jobs are more effecient use of your money. Why then did you pay the money to charity? most Charities deal with what you call lazy bums, why are you still paying for them?

I don't give to charities that help bums. I give to charities that help people who actually need help. And charities can do that a lot more efficiently than I can (or the government can).

From the size of the contributions in this country, a lot of people must feel that the government is not doing enough. is that wrong conclusion too?

Ack. It's hard not to get frustrated with you when you say such idiotic things.  The government isn't as effective as charities. You seem to think that government is a charity. It's not.

The standard of living of the society you live in does not depend only on your own standard, it also depends on the standard of living of all around you. what we call poor countries, have people richer than many in the USA, but their standard of living is still poor. driving your Jaguar in dirty streets full of people in dirty clothes doesnt feel good at all and doesnt make you feel that you are well-off at all. Go live in one of these countries for a month and you will know what i mean.

Have you ever BEEN to one of these countries? If not, don't try to lecture me on societal standards of living.  The reason the United States has a high standard of living is because, as a culture, we have traditionally believed in individual responsibility and the government has not been a significant drag on opportunities.

Those third world countries are poor for a variety of reasons but typically because their governments are corrupt (utterly corrupt). 

There will always be lazy bums and poors no matter what we or any society do. that is natural. not everyone is motivated or honest. Rich societies try to minimize their numbers and make their condition a decent one in order for the society in general to enjoy its rich status. That is really how we got to where we are now. it was not like that 200 yrs ago. how did we get here? we are not that dumb or just want to take money from people against their will. it is a necessity you just dont like. All of us dont like it either. but it is the cost of living the way we are.

For the first 150 years of our Republic, we didn't loot money from the capable to give to the incompetent.  Believing that a nanny state is inevitable and necessary is just lazy thinking and yes dumb.

Ultimately, control over society is always with those who produce.  The various socialist and communist countries learned this the hard way -- you loot from the producers too much and eventually the producers stop producing and the standard of living becomes the lowest common denominator.

I'm okay with bums starving. But we live in a democracy and so people have the right to vote for representatives who will loot what I create to give to them out of "compassion" (it's always easy to be compassionate with other people's stuff). 

I can choose where my threshold of pain is. This year, in fact, my threshold of pain was reached. Instead of working as hard, I'm taking up a new hobby (see my bee keeping blogs).  Hey, good for me right?  Sure.  But it also means fewer jobs will be created.  Or maybe I'll simply contract out to India or China some of the work I need done to make up the lost income.

I can't stop the ignorant or the greedy from voting in people who will loot my stuff to give to other people who did nothign to earn it.  But I can choose not to produce as much and because it's impossible to measure what I don't create, it's never missed. 

If it weren't for the cold war, the Russians may never have realized how flawed socialism/communism is. It was only because they could watch capitalistic America shoot past them in material standard of living that people could do such a clear-cut comparison.  If all the world had been socialist, they'd never known what they were missing.

on May 01, 2007

 

I'm taking care of my parents, i.e. they are living with me so I already have two room mates. The little money they have in savings is used for medical expenses. I feed them too (groceries) and run them to their doctors appointments (gas).

My first question then would be: Why are you taking care of your parents? If you're 25, what are they doing?

As for your driving, if you're working 7 days a week then you should be earning more per month (56 hours X $8). 

A 15 mile commute is actually pretty significant for such a low paying job. I mean hell, the McDonalds right by our office pays about that.

Actually, the fed taxes shown are bases on income minus the standard deduction minus my personal exemption so no, I’m not getting it
back.

At the end of the year you're getting it back.  Unless you don't know how to do taxes. You just claimed you have 2 dependents. It's a no brainer.

As for the rest - again, it really boils down to this: You can save $20 a week still.  If your parents are living with you, then one assumes they are at least getting social security or something. 

I'm sorry but your story doesn't make your case very sympathetic because it screams that you are either leaving things out or you have no idea how to manage money.  There are too many gaping red flags such as what are your parents doing that you have to take care of both of them? If they aren't working they're likely getting something. And your food bills are still too high.

And unless you're buying gold plated toilet paper, you shouldn't be spending so much on food. I checked with my wife for how much we spent -- Family of 5, March 2007 was $565 and that was everything -- food, toiletries, DIAPERS, etc.  Everything you'd buy at Meijer and Farmer Jack.  And we're not remotely going with out.

ANYWAY...

Getting back to the topic:

You're 25. If you save a measly $100 per month (about 3 bucks per day) and put it into a decent long term investment account yielding a mere 6% annual interest you will have $200,000 waiting for you when you retire.

THAT's the point: It requires very little sacrifice or effort even by relatively poor people to end up with a decent nest egg.

And don't tell me you can't find a way to save $100.  I don't know about your particular case but I have had this conversation in real life with countless people who seem to have similar stories and they always end up with "I can't give up my smokes, man!" or "I have to go out on Friday with the guys for drinks, what good is life if you can't enjoy it."  It's always about priorities.

on May 02, 2007
It's hard not to get frustrated with you when you say such idiotic things.


Not me who is getting you frustrated. it is the logic. You still saying that you can make $5 out of that $1 and hire more people even though i answered that. you will hire more people and make 500% ROI, even though there is no extra people to buy your product? Those extra people came from that $1, if you keep it, these people wont be there. You still expand without the extra users? This is still idiotic? that is what is frustarting you. Not me. In Fact your business will shrink not expand due to the loss of the users who came from your $1 that you withdrawn from the market. So in fact you will lay off some people not hire more if you keep your $1. but hey,... you will still have your $1

Have you ever BEEN to one of these countries?


That is really funny ...... for yeaaaaaaars at manyyyyyyyyy of them. I just came back from one. And i was not discussing why they are poor. you missing my point completely.

the Russians may never have realized how flawed socialism/communism is


Who is talking socialism/communism here? we talking about policies by a democratic government for a free market economy. so dont be hyper and get melodramatic.

In my first comment i said it is not Capt. Vs Socl. it is Moral Capt Vs Selfish Capt. That is really what the question was, "Moral Society" read it again in the main post. So dont talk about Russia , Cuba, ...etc. If you take "Morality"out of the original question, then you are answering the wrong question.

Free economy is a two-way street. it can bite you too if you dont see how it is feeding on things you like to eliminate.
on May 02, 2007
i dont think this is enough to make us really moral society.


the government cannot make people moral. they can make people help others but is that really moral.

i don't think so.

it may be a good idea to let the gov. help people and make the haves pay for it.

but that isn't moral

the same was true in the bible when the isrealites were told to leave the corners of the fields unhavested so that the poor can eat. that isn't the diff. of being moral. that is just doing what god ordered. but what would be moral would be to offer them a table to sit at to eat the grain that you left in the field. and someplace to cook it.

stuff like that
on May 02, 2007

ThinkAloud: The fact that you think the government creates wealth means there's really not point wasting more time trying to explain economics to you.

Moreover, that you don't recognize that arguing that we should take from people based on their ability to produce and give to people based on their need as being essentially socialist speaks volumes.

on May 04, 2007

the same was true in the bible when the isrealites were told to leave the corners of the fields unhavested so that the poor can eat. that isn't the diff. of being moral. that is just doing what god ordered. but what would be moral would be to offer them a table to sit at to eat the grain that you left in the field. and someplace to cook it.

People aren't starving in America.

There's a big difference between making sure people aren't going hungry and providing them with enough material assistance so that they can afford DVD players and free cable and Internet access.

on May 04, 2007
There's a big difference between making sure people aren't going hungry and providing them with enough material assistance so that they can afford DVD players and free cable and Internet access.


i agree but unless you have lived on the streets

on May 05, 2007

i agree but unless you have lived on the streets...

...Which I have.  (Not homeless but I've been what any American would consider poor (for an American).

The number of people who are homeless in America that aren't drug addicts or mentally disabled is tiny. So let's keep our discussion in the realm of what's real. 

If we eliminated social security, we would not suddenly have millions of homeless people.

on May 05, 2007
i don't know where either of you were homeless

but i was on the streets in san fran.

and i learned two things there

1 most of the people living on the streets are there becouse they want to be
and
2 if you want to in san fran. you can go from 5 am to 10 pm and do nothing but eat oh and walk betten the places of course

and

when the war had been over for a year i watched nite line do a special on how bad it was in baghdad.

the lady they enterviewed was having trouble getting her government check and well she was waiting she was enjoying her brand new wide screen tv half the time in her brand new apartment

the electricity was only on half the time. but she also said that when saddam was in power it was only on a third of the time.

this is just me but i couldn't really see what she was complaining about. yes i understand she needed to buy food but
on May 05, 2007
when the war had been over for a year i watched nite line do a special on how bad it was in baghdad.


What year was that?
on May 05, 2007
when the war had been over for a year i watched nite line do a special on how bad it was in baghdad.


What year was that?


i don't remember 2003 or 2004 one year after bush said that the major fighting was over

Do you think the 'well off' have always been comfortable? Or that the only way to improve your lot in life is with government assitance?


no i don't thing the well off have always been comfortable bill gates started out in an apartment with 7 other guys

and you can't really improve your lot in life off the government becouse all of those programs are designed to keep you dependent on the government. just like the democrats who designed them over the last 40 years want.

that way at election time your beholding to them

on May 05, 2007
i don't remember 2003 or 2004 one year after bush said that the major fighting was over


The war is NOT OVER. Surely you realize this.
on May 05, 2007
The war is NOT OVER. Surely you realize this.


this is a secound war

first war we were fighting saddam and his army

secoud war is against the insurgents

the so called civil war is also a seperate war
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