Should you pay so people can have beer and DVD's while not saving?
Published on April 29, 2007 By greywar In Politics

 *edited to include drmiler's dispute over the payout arrangement of Social Security. I will have to do more research on this aspect.   

      There is a nice article over at National Review dealing with Social Security and it's impending collapse. I suggest you read it but in case you don't want to I will summarize the key points:


1. Social Security will not cover its yearly payouts with contributions starting in 2017. Then it would have to rely on the trust fund (where past surpluses were supposed to have gone).

2. The trust fund would keep it running until 2041.

3. The trust fund is already gone (long, long gone actually).

4. This means that in 2017 Social Security is broke. We will either have o lower benefits or raise Social Security deductions from current workers.


     The article goes on to laud the benefits of private retirement accounts. This is fine and true but also not the point. Social Security is not about your retirement. It is about other people's retirement and sundry payouts.

      This is why Social Security is going broke. If you simply paid a given amount of money into the government during your working years and had it doled back out to you when you retire Social Security would be just fine even if it didn't pay you interest on your money.

     The problem is that Social Security takes the money you have paid in and gives part of it away to other people who either didn't pay in as much as you did or even to some who never did or ever will pay in a dime.

      Social Security payments pay around a center line*. If your career was spent earning (and thusly contributing) less than the average American worker you will be paid back more than you contributed. The poorer you were the bigger the difference. Conversely if you were well paid during your lifetime you won't get back out as much as you paid in. Social Security is also used as payments to people who do not and cannot ever pay into the system (like the mentally handicapped).

 

*drmiler disputes this part of the article and has personal experience to back it up:


"This where you're dead wrong! What you get is based "solely" on how much you put in. So much per quarter. When you apply they take what you've paid in over your working years add it up and divide that by 20 (years which is what they figure you'll last). The figure is now your annual income. So you take that and divide it by 12 (months) and that's what you get per month! And don't try to tell me different. I "just" went through this with my wife. So I'm 100% positive on those figures. And it's the same figures with disability. Which I know because "I" went through that!"


     Add in the overhead of a large government agency running the program and you get a negative rate of return overall. Run this way for enough years and add in the fact that people retire earlier and live longer and get what we have: a program that is mathematically unsustainable without even more taxation.

     This is why comparing Social Security to private accounts, IRAs, or 401k plans is senseless. None of those plans are intended to do anything for anyone except the person who pays into them. No one else gets paid, they are invested in solid plans, and they have a lot less admin overhead.

     The only issue to decide is whether you think that people at or above the median income in America owe a retirement to those who live below it or to those that cannot work at all. In essence it is Capitalism vs. Socialism and what balance is to be struck between the two as a moral society.

     My opinion is that the folks like the mentally handicapped should be cared for with monies held separate from anything intended as retirement for anyone. Simply make it a separate tax. Aside from that I do not buy into Social Security for anyone of my generation or later. If you were born after 1970 and can't figure out how to succeed moderately over the course of a 45-47 year working career with the current flood of government subsidies, education programs, and job placement programs then I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.

     Americans seem to believe that they shouldn't have to budget or live within their means. Most of the minimum wage people I worked with over the years drove cars that were more expensive than they needed. They bought fast food for lunch and got their groceries at expensive places like the 7-11 rather than go to the grocery store.

     Many drank, smoked weed, or had other recreational drug habits. They had nice stereos, TV's, and multimedia electronics while collecting food stamps or other government benefits (read as your tax money). I would say that 98% of the minimum wage co-workers I had over the years could have lived comfortably while saving 10-15% of their income.

     There were exceptions to this rule but these were mainly the fast food folks with lots of kids; a personal choice. Almost all of them could have started saving for retirement at age 18 or even sooner since many had worked in for minimum wage since age 14 or 15 (not an upwardly mobile crowd you see) had they simply cut back on non-essentials and saved some money. The issue was not that they couldn't save but rather that they didn't want to make the sacrifices to do so. Should this sort of decision making be paid for by the taxpayer?

     It would have been hard but even working as a pizza guy I could have saved enough for a modest retirement over the course of 47 years. I would have had to lower my current standard of living and cut out most entertainment expenses of course.  I don't think anyone should owe me any money when I am 65 just because I wouldn't do without DVD's, fast food, or a car I shouldn't have bought. You should have to make the right choices to be rewarded.

 

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Comments (Page 2)
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on Apr 30, 2007
Morally how? From where do you get this idea?

I don't think *owe* comes into as a morality issue at all.

I disagree that we must be strong-armed into giving.
on Apr 30, 2007
To answer the ultimate question: No. I don't think one citizen should be forced to pay for another citizen's retirement.


I disagree. There are those who have tried, and tried to save for retirement. And, for one reason or another, have failed.

Example, my mother. She turns 59 years old this year. Retirement? Nope. Anything of that sort? Nope. Has she tried? Yes, many times. However, she got fired from working at the hospital, where she had all of that. She lost everything because of a certain situation and a boss of hers. She's tried again and again since then, and has only been able to get part time jobs. So yes, I do believe we should have SS. We should treat our elder citizens right, and not leave them out on the streets.

When it comes to SS with those unemployed, etc... If they are trying to find a job, then i do feel we should help them. Otherwise, no.

The SS system could work properly, if it was managed the right way, responsibly.

on Apr 30, 2007
I don't think that's a very realistic way to describe life in America, even for the impoverished.

Most people have families who could care for them if the gov't weren't doing it for them, and there are vast charitable organizations there as well.


Maybe. I've always been amazed at the number of people in first-world countries who die of hunger, malnutrition or easily treated diseases. The figures are often quite surprising.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be realistic. Realistically people don't prepare themselves for their future. It just doesn't happen. That's why the gov always ends up doing it. Disaster relief is the most obvious area of this (it's amazing how many people in cyclone areas don't have insurance) but it happens everywhere else.

The question is not whether people should be self-reliant but whether they actually can be.
on Apr 30, 2007

Social Security payments pay around a center line. If your career was spent earning (and thusly contributing) less than the average American worker you will be paid back more than you contributed. The poorer you were the bigger the difference. Conversely if you were well paid during your lifetime you won't get back out as much as you paid in. Social Security is also used as payments to people who do not and cannot ever pay into the system (like the mentally handicapped


This where you're dead wrong! What you get is based "solely" on how much you put in. So much per quarter. When you apply they take what you've paid in over your working years add it up and divide that by 20 (years which is what they figure you'll last). The figure is now your annual income. So you take that and divide it by 12 (months) and that's what you get per month! And don't try to tell me different. I "just" went through this with my wife. So I'm 100% positive on those figures. And it's the same figures with disability. Which I know because "I" went through that!
on Apr 30, 2007

So I'm 100% positive on those figures. And it's the same figures with disability. Which I know because "I" went through that!

You are correct as long as you don't count your employers matching contributions. It is this additional tax that allows payments to non or undercontributors. I could be wrong on that as well I suppose. I don't hae the first hand experience of payouts yet so I bow to your experience on the matter.

on Apr 30, 2007
Morally how? From where do you get this idea?


Remember, the main question was:
what balance is to be struck between the two as a moral society


moral was the key word. i did not inject it into the discussion.

how morally this is comes from the principle that no one achieves anything alone. others and the society contributed to your achievements whether you realize it or not. Morally, you MUST contribute something back to help others achieve as others helped you.

If we leave this obligation to be done voluntarily, not many of us do much. that is why we are "strong-armed" into giving, otherwise the society and the others who helped us achieve will eventually wither and disppear. we cant just take and not give back, if we do, there will be nothing to take. at best, it will all be concentrated in the hands of very very few.

Dont forget, that is the way it was not very long time ago. The progressive tax, labor laws and ss systems are the rules that made it possible for almost all of us to be living the way we are now.

I hate to think that anyone will use the society and others then turn their back on the system that made it possible for them to achieve their "Haves" status. That system includes those same taxes that we hate and condemn. it is natural, but it is love-to-hate thing.
on Apr 30, 2007
How about a link to those figures, cacto, or are you still on a google-strike and pulling statements out of your ass for others to verify?


Okay, there was exaggeration there on the deaths front. But a study in Sydney found 40% of in-patients at two local teaching hospitals are malnourished (source: Middleton MH et al Internal Medicine Journal 2001 vol 31 pp 455-461 - do you have access to that? there's an article on it from the ABC here (its where I harvested the article): http://www.abc.net.au/health/minutes/stories/s415702.htm )

Kelloggs reckons one in every ten australians only avoids hunger through charity - http://www.kelloggs.com.au/DisplayPage.asp?PageID=485§ionid=3

But you're right - it's not really a big or even a medium-sized problem. I am still surprised though that it happens at all.

Oh, and from what I managed to find lots of elderly people seem to die of easily treatable diseases like pneumonia, but frankly I'm pulling at straws here.

Okay, I give up. The figures I'd heard about apparently don't exist. It's amazing the falsehoods people spread about Aboriginal health in my country. I'd always heard they were starving but I haven't found anything about it anywhere. You're right - it's time to end the google strike.

I still reckon most people won't look after their future. They won't even buy initially more expensive lightbulbs that'll last longer and cost less in the long-term!
on Apr 30, 2007

unwilling to look after themselves then we at least owe them a life worth living

So you are saying we should squander the moment, as after all SOMEONE OWES US Something.  So why worry about the future?  Live like the grasshopper.

on Apr 30, 2007

The SS system could work properly, if it was managed the right way, responsibly.

As it was originally defined, it could.  As it is currently definded, it cannot.  You cannot pay out more than you take in, and with Supplemental, that is what is happening.

on Apr 30, 2007
So you are saying we should squander the moment, as after all SOMEONE OWES US Something. So why worry about the future? Live like the grasshopper.


If you want to get all melodramatic, sure. But we are talking about retirement here. I don't think it's out of the question to say that someone who's worked their whole life in service of the country shouldn't get something from their children's generation. But that's off the point I guess. Your social security scheme doesn't work in a particularly sensible way, so it's nothing like the systems in the British welfare world.

Anyway, from what greywar is saying it could definitely do with a shakeup. No funds in 2014 is a serious problem.
on Apr 30, 2007

Anyway, from what greywar is saying it could definitely do with a shakeup

Indeed it could. I also think that a bit of honesty about the fiscal realities of this program is due to the current generation. It is a bit disingenous to allow today's young people to operate under the delusion that the government can or will take care of them. Financial planning is key.

on Apr 30, 2007

Oh, and what no one has talked about is that sice this economy is so driven by people who put themselves in debt to buy stuff, what would it look like if more people actually was more responcible with their money?

If people saved money, presumably with banks, that money would be available for investment in the form of bank loans and the like. 

on Apr 30, 2007

It is not Capitalism Vs Socialism. It is Moral Capitalism Vs Selfish Capitalism. Technically, no one ows anything to others. But morally, the Haves owe a lot to have-nots. the first obligation is to get the have-nots off their bad habits (somehow .... by education, regulations, advice, restrictions ...etc) and try to minimize their number as much as possible. After that morally we still have to help as much as we can.

If the Haves, dont pay taxes and social security more than the poor do, How else do you think they should contribute more than the poor do? just by charitable contributions? i dont think this is enough to make us really moral society.

There's nothing moral about confiscating money from people at the point of a gun to give to dumb people.

I consider myself pretty moral, thinkaloud. Want to compare charitable giving in the past year? I simply don't see anything moral about having an inefficient, half-assed government taking earnings from one citizen to give to another simply because that person was too much of a dumb ass to save money for a rainy day.

on Apr 30, 2007

If the Haves, dont pay taxes and social security more than the poor do, How else do you think they should contribute more than the poor do? just by charitable contributions? i dont think this is enough to make us really moral society.

the haves contribute to society by creating the jobs people work, inventing new things we enjoy, and being the backbone of charitable donations.  Why is it up to the compotent to be "moral" while allowing the incompotent off the hook.

Social security has been awful for our country IMO.  In the "old" days, the young took care of their parents themselves. To me, that's a more moral society than what we have today.

on Apr 30, 2007

(regarding whether we should take money from one person to give to another)

I disagree. There are those who have tried, and tried to save for retirement. And, for one reason or another, have failed.

Example, my mother. She turns 59 years old this year. Retirement? Nope. Anything of that sort? Nope. Has she tried? Yes, many times. However, she got fired from working at the hospital, where she had all of that. She lost everything because of a certain situation and a boss of hers. She's tried again and again since then, and has only been able to get part time jobs. So yes, I do believe we should have SS. We should treat our elder citizens right, and not leave them out on the streets.

When it comes to SS with those unemployed, etc... If they are trying to find a job, then i do feel we should help them. Otherwise, no.

The SS system could work properly, if it was managed the right way, responsibly.

So what are you doing to take care of your mother, Silent Poet.  Why is it my responsibility to take care of your mother?  It is your responsibility to take care of your mother in her old age. 

And why should your mom be thinking of retirement at 59? When social security was started, the average lifepan was 57 and the benefits didn't start until 65.  Today, your mom can expect to live until around 75 years old or more.  On what bizarro planet do people live on that they think that people should get to sit around for nearly 20 years living off the hard work of others? That's insane. 

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