this God is very local
Published on August 18, 2008 By greywar In Religion

     The Bible has some wonderful stuff in it but if you are looking for moral or ethical help I would suggest avoiding Genesis like the plague.

 

      The first recorded instance of setting someone up for ethical failure:

 

 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

 

     Also note the first instance of a deity telling an outright lie to man up there when he tells them that they will die from eating the fruit. Imagine their surprise when they ate it and didn’t die but rather figured out that they were naked (the horror!) :

 

she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

 

     Followed closely by over-the-top cruelty to Eve (keep in mind that God already lied about the penalty for eating the fruit and apparently has now decided that knowledge of good and evil is just not painful enough) :

 

16 To the woman he said,
       "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
       with pain you will give birth to children.
       Your desire will be for your husband,
       and he will rule over you."

 

    Why was God so pissed (and why did he lie about the tree) ? Well obviously it was because he didn’t want them to start eating from the trees that God and his peers (apparently he has peers in the garden) wanted to keep for their own:

 

     And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (a good point to keep in mind is that this passage with it’s attendant implications is the progenitor of many aspects of modern would-be “hermeticists” - GW)

 


 

 

       God follows up his ethical misdirection here by randomly promoting sibling rivalry when Adam’s sons bring him part of the food they have worked so hard to make. Apparently God is a meatetarian:

 

3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.

 

     At this point it is important to note that the God of Genesis is not an omniscient God in any manner and that there are apparently other men in Nod that God did not create:

 

Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

 

     Who will kill him then? God’s creations at this point number Adam, Eve, Cain, and the now dead Abel. The Noddites were apparently already there from some other God (perhaps one of God’s buddies who hang out with him in the Garden eating fruits of knowledge and life while knocking back some brewskies?).

 

     This brings us to one of the bigger conflicts in the “early” bible… Who is the Lamech’s family? Note that I don’t just mean there are two people ambiguously named Lamech here but rather that there are two lineages for the exact same Lamech. Was he of the house of Cain (the cursed) or of Adam. We are about 3 pages into the bible and it is a train wreck of consistency:

 

Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

 

     So Cain was the head of Lamech’s family? Wait for it:

(ok I am abbreviating here):

 

Adam’s line:

 

Adam – Seth- Enosh- Kenan – Mahalalel – Jared – Enoch – Methuselah – Lamech – Noah

 

    Since the narrative runs that Noah was a nice guy we can assume that Cain’s Lamech didn’t father him since that Lamech is a vengeful ass (then again God in this version is also a vengeful ass so maybe that just makes Lamech ibn Cain “godly”):

 

23 Lamech said to his wives,
       "Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
       wives of Lamech, hear my words.
       I have killed
[y] a man for wounding me,
       a young man for injuring me.

 

    I wonder if he ever killed a man for snoring?

 

    Keep in mind that at this point we are only up to Genesis 5! God needs a new proofreader. If I make it through these classes without an aneurism that really will be a miracle.

 

 

 

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Comments (Page 3)
on Oct 24, 2008

The Qur'an doesn't get exonerated by casting aspersions against the Holy Bible.

you are absolutely correct

Qura'n stands on its own .. it speaks for itself loud and clear in the most eloquent way ... if you know hw to read arabic that is.

Qura'n does not need anyone ... muslims included to speak for it.

this last point is really confirmed by what LW said about the people who send you a copy and you never hear from them agian... there is no need for them ... in fact it is better that they stay away ... and they know it ... and they stay away.

but neither they nor we can ignore the jihadist's many clear statements or trapess around on tippy-toes watching our every word (or cartoon) just becasue we might offend sensibilities.

see what i mean? .. even in the same thread you cry the bashing of God's words ... you defend the bashing of it!!!!!

and you take the terrorists word as a true representation of Islam??????

do you realize what you doing Lula? ... you are allover the place logically .... please be consistent.

Qura'n is a book ... available for anyone wants to know what it says... you dont take my word for it ... and you take the terrosits word for it?????

this is serious business Lula.... you dont have to believe in waht qura'n says. but you cant say that it says things that it never did say.... i read the bible ... many many times ... i disagree with what was written by those people you say they were "inspired" by god. but regardless of my opinion ... there is no way i will say something that the book didn say .... or believe others without reading it myself ....

only people who are afraid from the truth ... try to avoid it Lula. But the truth always prevails ...

second-hand knowledge is distorted incomplete one Lula ... try the source ... distorted knowledge is very dangerous Lula .. it is very dangerous.

on Oct 25, 2008

Think Aloud post #28

btw,there was no such thing as a second tree (i.e of life) ... that is part of the misinformation introduced by many texts and many authers of the current document ... it was just one forbidden tree ... not two ...

You are correct that there was only the one Tree of Good and Evil from which they were forbidden to eat.

However, Genesis 2:9 states that God brought forth the Tree of Life also in the middle of the Garden of Paradise...along with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Catholics believe the Tree of Life was such becasue it had that quality that by eating of the fruit, they have been preserved in a constant state of vigor, health,and strength and not died at all. Man is made of physical body and spiritual soul. So even as the life of the body was preserved by this tree, so today by eating the Blessed Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, (Our Lord Jesus Christ's sacred Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) the supernatural life of the soul is increased and preserved. Christ said, "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever."

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was called such because God had forbidden them to eat of this tree and that if he transgressed the command, he would learn by a sad and terrible experience the difference between good and evil. The Tree of Knowledge is a type of the Cross of Christ. As by the Tree of Knowledge, it was to be decided whether man would choose good or evil, so is Christ the Crucified "set for the fall and resurrection of many". (note many, not all). They who believe in Him Crucified and follow Him, will obtain eternal life, but those who will not believe and will not follow Him will be eternally lost. The devil conquered by means of the Tree of Knowledge, but by the Christ's Cross he was conquered. With the Devil sin began, with Christ, redemption and salvation.

 

on Oct 25, 2008

LW POSTS:

He speaks the truth, Lula. You'd do well to listen.

ThinkAloud has his head in the sand about refusing to acknowledge that some Muslims in fact, do great harm in the name of Islam, Allah and the teachings of Qur'an.

Here's an example of Muhammad vs Christ...."Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven." St.Matt. 5:11

 "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter." Qur'an 2:191

But ya know what, lula? If they've got it right...we're the ones in big trouble when those end times people like you pine for finally begin to arrive.

Just from this one passage alone, it's clear that the Qur'an is not from the one God of Abraham. It completely contradicts the Holy Bible  and God is not a God of contradiction or confusion. That, my dear LW,  is how I know that they've not got it right....nuf' said on that note.

Again, how about the headlines and the videos show that Muslims behead their enemies, terrorize non-combatants, fly airplanes into buildings, shoot nuns in the back, and are presently kidnapping bishops and killing them, burning Catholic Churches to the ground, and legally murder those who wish to convert from Islam.
 

Didn't Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, repeatedly emphasize that there was nothing better or holier for his followers to do besides the act of becoming a Muslim than jihad warfare?

Didn't Mohammad teach to offer non-Muslims only three choices: conversion, subjugation or death?

These teachings aren't marginal doctrines or historical relics....they are still taught in mainstream Islam, repeatedly affirmed in the Qur'an, the Hadith, the example of Mohammad and Islamic law.

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 26, 2008

LULA POSTS:

ThinkAloud has his head in the sand about refusing to acknowledge that some Muslims in fact, do great harm in the name of Islam, Allah and the teachings of Qur'an.

LW POSTS:

SOME.

I don't see TA disagreeing with you there.

The problem is we haven't seen TA or Muslims in general, squarely condemn Muslim jihadists for doing these horrific things. Have you noticed this?   

America is overwhelmingly Christian, and overwhelmingly crime-riddled. Did ya know that over 90% of all our imprisoned murderers, child rapers, thieves, and drug dealers identify themselves as 'Christian?'

Why does such an overwhelmingly Christian nation have such a high rate of divorce, child abuse, drug and alcohol addiction, abortion, promiscuity, sexually transmitted diseases, and an entire host of seemingly intractable social woes?

A couple of things....Christianity condemns these evil things.so when peope do them...they may claim to be Christian but they are not acting Christian. Another point is that these so-called Christians don't do these bad things in the name of God and Christianity as the homicidal radical Muslim jihadists do in the name of Allah, the Qur'an and Islam.

You can hold Islam up as high as you want, and say that it's only the lunatic fringe that give it a bad name, however, let's be real as far as the Islamic world is concerned.....don't even pretend to hold it up high as far as human rights and religious tolerance are concerned. They are regularly and systematically denied.

Here in th USA, we allow Muslims religious freedom....not so in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia....Christian worship is forbidden and even tourists Bibles are confiscated and destroyed.

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 26, 2008

You are correct that there was only the one Tree of Good and Evil from which they were forbidden to eat.
However, Genesis 2:9 states that God brought forth the Tree of Life also in the middle of the Garden of Paradise...along with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.[/quote]

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was called such because God had forbidden them to eat of this tree and that if he transgressed the command, he would learn by a sad and terrible experience the difference between good and evil.

So by your own admission here, "Gensis's" writers introduced their own version of what God said. not only that but they even identified the tree as "tree of knowledge" ... God never stated what type of tree.

If you think about it, the tree could never be the "tree of knowledge" which implies that they had no knowledge before they ate from it. which makes God unfair and unjust as you can get. How can he ask them to "know" Satan, "know" that he is their "enemy" and above all "know" that disobeying God is an evil act?

that is the problem with the "book" you believe that it is the "literal" words of God. it is not.... by all acounts what you have is a compilation of texts from different people's version of what they remember from they heard from both Moses and Jesus.

you keep saying ... it was inspired by God. the thoughts of every human .. is one way or another are "inspired" by God or by "Satan" nothing or no other being is capable of getting into our heads and "inspire" thoughts or words.... Can everyone of us write things and say it is from God?

God's true words were not "inspired" to His messengers Lula. They were delivered to them personally. . Moses recieved those words personally from Him. others by an archangle. 

when archangel Gebriel first appeared to Pr. Mohammad, he didnt trust him and he told his wife that he is very disturbed by this being coming to him like that. He told his wife about that ... She had a cousin who was a Jew. She advise her husband to go and meet him and tell him about the angel. Her cousin (his name was Waraqa ben Nofel) asked Pr. Mohammad questions about how that angel looked and how he behaved ... after the discussion he told mohammad ... from what you said .. it looked like it the same angel who came to Moses ...

Lula, all religious scholars and pious people get inspirations ... that does not make what they say words of God. it is their opinions, thoughts ... etc. God's words should be kept unique and separate from that even from the personal words of the prophets themselves.  anything else is a corruption of God's authentic word ... and THAT is very dangerous and very misleading.

[quote]Christ said, "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever."

Can you imagine Jesus REALLY saying that? for you to say he "meant" this or that is nonsense. God's words are clear and mean what they say and say what they mean.

if that quote is God's words as you say ... it means ALL christians should live forever. ... do you see that happening Lula?

you doing your best trying to make sense out of a collection of some people's thoughts and contradictory conclusions (which is normal for scholars and theologians) but that should not be recognized as God's words ... it is their own human thoughts and understanding and they often disagree with one another. especially if they all doing it few hundred years removed from the actual event.

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter." Qur'an 2:191

Great !!!! why didnt you mention the verses before and after it and the people they refer to as "them" ....  (PS: persecution is not a correct translation of the word 'Fitnah' ... its correct meaning is spreading animosity by falshood to both sides)

but even this single out-of-context verse gives you a hint of the rule: the people who caused this "Fitnah", which is worse than murder, and who drove you out of your homes ... those .. i.e "them" you should slay and kill to regain your homes and eliminate that 'Fitnah'.

now: read verses 190 and then 192 ... and i am sure you did ... but you intentionally ignored them.... and you will know that God is telling Muslims .. dont surrender to defeat .. fight back .... and that FOR TO KNOW is a fundamental principle in Islam. If attacked personally or your property, you have the right to defend yourself and restore your land and homes. Anything wrong with that Lula? isnt that what we call "property rights" here?

but you present it as a command to just slay and kill !!!!

then you complain about others distorting the words of the bible?

Double standard Lula???? how christian of you.!!!!

wake up Lula .... we are not trying to convince each other here ... no need for misrepresentation or spreading falsehoods ... we should be trying to convince nonebelievers ... not confuse them ...at least that is what i think we should be doing.

Didn't Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, repeatedly emphasize that there was nothing better or holier for his followers to do besides the act of becoming a Muslim than jihad warfare?

here again ... misleading ... you just found it convenient to add the word "warfare" ... nice try.

and Jihad, unfairly maligned word, means Struggle in the way of Allah. read what scholars said about that and you will realize that "jihad warfare" is the least important part of that struggle. In fact after returning from a battle ... pr. Mohammad said "we rturned from the minor struggle to the major one". they asked him: what is the major struggle ... he answered "oneself's struggle" .... you see Lula .... and how true is that? struggling against oneslef's arraogance, bias, hypocrisy and violent tendencies...etc is the major task in the way of Allah.

that is Islam Lula ... not your version .. after adding just a word ... innocent mistake .. isnt it? !!!!! but makes all the difference.... check the source Lula ... the source Lula ... not second-hand hearsay.

Didn't Mohammad teach to offer non-Muslims only three choices: conversion, subjugation or death?

absolutely not.... total lie and fabrication..... the three are against everything Islam's laws.

I challenge YOU or anyone to produce the authentic hadith that said that. by authentic i mean one that is mentioned in one of two books. "Boukhari" or "Muslim". These are the only two book recognized as the authority on what he said. no other book is trusted.  

a proof of the fallacy of what you said is the fact that Jews and Christians remained in the muslim countries all the time since Islam existed till today ... with never a persectution or genocide as the christians did to Muslims and Jews in europe.

study Lula ... before you talk about Islam.

on Oct 27, 2008

study Lula ... before you talk about Islam.

Good luck.  I doubt Lula's studied anything besides what her precious church tells her to study in many a year, if at all.

She's the definition of closed-minded religious bigot.

on Oct 27, 2008

Here in th USA, we allow Muslims religious freedom....not so in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia....Christian worship is forbidden and even tourists Bibles are confiscated and destroyed.

Lula ... your knowledge is really lacking ... a lot. I am not going to answer your other points in this comment. it is usless if you dont know your facts staright.

as for this one ... again total falsehood. did u ver vist Syria?Egypt? Palastine? Morocco? Indonesia? ... even in Saudia arabia ... only in the two sacred cities of Meccaa and Madinah is there a restriction on nonmuslims. I was there for 4 yrs ... working with overwhelming majority of Christians and jews ... they had their bibles .. they even can get their wine and champaign ... .

Saudia is not the Islamic world Lula ... comparing it to muslim countries is like comparing "Vatican" to other christian countries .... can i go and pray on the Vatican ground Lula? how about building a mosque there? would they allow that?

but that was never a reason for any muslim to say "christian countries" do not allow muslims and qura'n .... did you ever hear a muslim saying that .... unfortunately .... i hear huge number of christians falsely say what you said..... 

 

on Oct 27, 2008

we should be trying to convince nonebelievers ... not confuse them ...at least that is what i think we should be doing.

Lula, I just like to emphasize to you that my first comment was intended to clear the confusion raised in the main article. I wanted to point out that God should not be held accountable for human's confusion and misleading representation of His words.

the problem is you confirm and increase their confusion ... i just wonder how do you expect to convince people by your illogical and sometimes naive and biased responses.

you really must realize that this is not the age in which you can fool people ... that era ended more than 500 yrs ago ... now little kids know logic and reason and know how to deal with information and separate common sense from other nonsensical arguments.

when my own yougest son was 6 yrs old and i was talking to him about God and other stuff ... suddenly he asked me: why is god hiding himself from us? why didnt He allow us to see Him at least once"

i was shocked by the question. i never thought of it. and to tell you the truth never heard it from any one esle before or after that.

I couldnt answer the question on the spot. I told Him, let me think about it and i will let you know.

I kept laughing at myslef and him, i said this kid is going to be major trouble !!!

but i thought long and hard about his question. and suddenly i realized ... that in fact God did whatmy son asked for ... He let us see him.... personally for not just once but for a while ....

few days later i told my son: if saw a man and i told you about him and about what he said, would you consider this a firm proof that that man exists as if you saw him yourself? my son said yes.

i said that is what God did. Our first father and our first mother saw Him, and he told them always tell your kids about me and about what i said. ... does that answer your question ... my son said yes. Now i know.

see Lula. that was a 6 yrs old kid ... he asked a question that I could not answer right away and never thought of it myself.

keep that in mind when you trying to convince nonbelievers of anything....

on Oct 27, 2008

Lula posts:

How about talking truth...Muslims behead their enemies, terrorize non-combatants, fly airplanes into buildings, shoot nuns in the back, and are presently kidnapping bishops and killing them, burning Catholic Chruches to the ground, and legally murder those who wish to convert from their religion.

These I would not bash for I do not bash period....but I do condemn them...100%.

It is the Qur'an from which these Muslims get their direction to commit these awful crimes is it not?

THINKALOUD POSTS:

qura'n says .. even in war .. you are not allowed to attack women, children and unarmed men AND you are not allowed to destroy property ... even trees ....

and if you believe, as you seem to be, that Qura'n instructs muslims to do the things you mentioned

What you say is comforting, but false. These atrocities I listed with more occurring almost daily, are a technological progress of Islam. Suicide/homicide attack recruiters today point to Qur'an 9:111, which guarantees Paradise to those who "kill and are killed" for Allah. From what I've read John Paul Jones encountered suicide attacks by Muslim Turks in 1788.

As for attacks on civilians, they are not forbidden in all cases in Islamic law. And in Islamic history, attacks on civilians are numerous. Muslim raiders who from the 17th to 19th centuries kidnapped 1,000's of British men, women and children and sold them into brutal slavery in N. Africa, believed they were warriors of Islam engaged in jihad. In 1148, Muslim commander Nur ed-Din ordered the killing of every Christian in Aleppo. Muhammad enjoined warfare against unbelievers and today's jihadists routinely invoke Muhammad to justify theirs.

At the beheading of AMerican hostage Nicholas Berg, al-Zarqawi declared, "The Prophet, the most merciful, ordered (his army) to strike the necks of some prisoners in the battle of Badr and to kill them .....and he set a good example for us."

So, yes, violence in the name of Islam is occurring everyday around the world.

The problem is we haven't seen TA or Muslims in general, squarely condemn Muslim jihadists for doing these horrific things. Have you noticed this?

Do you abhor these horrific acts of jihadism? Why haven't you condemned them? 

 

 

 

on Oct 27, 2008

Lula, all religious scholars and pious people get inspirations ... that does not make what they say words of God. it is their opinions, thoughts ... etc. God's words should be kept unique and separate from that even from the personal words of the prophets themselves. anything else is a corruption of God's authentic word ... and THAT is very dangerous and very misleading.[/quote]

Of Greywar's mention in his article of the Tree of Life, you said:

THINKALOUD POSTS:

btw,there was no such thing as a second tree (i.e of life) ... that is part of the misinformation introduced by many texts and many authers of the current document ...

THINKALOUD, you are mistaken.

Sacred Scripture does mention the Tree of Life in Genesis 2:9, "And the Lord God brought forth of the ground all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the Tree of Life also in the midst of Paradise; and the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil." 

THINKALOUD POSTS #39

i read the bible ... many many times ... i disagree with what was written by those people you say they were "inspired" by god. but regardless of my opinion ... there is no way i will say something that the book didn say .... or believe others without reading it myself ....

Here by what you said (in bold), you apparently don't mean what you say. You just did say that the Tree of Life was not in Sacred Scripture...yet, not only is it there, but there is great meaning behind it's being there of which I tried to explain.

 

LULA POSTS:

However, Genesis 2:9 states that God brought forth the Tree of Life also in the middle of the Garden of Paradise...along with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.


The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was called such because God had forbidden them to eat of this tree and that if he transgressed the command, he would learn by a sad and terrible experience the difference between good and evil.

THINKALOUD POSTS:

So by your own admission here, "Gensis's" writers introduced their own version of what God said. not only that but they even identified the tree as "tree of knowledge" ... God never stated what type of tree.

From the most faithful and accurate translation, the Douay Rheims, I just quoted Genesis 2:9,....it says what it says...it is what Almighty God wanted us to know...He's the One who inspired the Genesis writer (s) to write it exactly as He inspired them to do. God did indeed want us to know about those two types of Trees in Paradise...that's why they are in Sacred Scripture in the form of the Holy Bible....God's very Word to us.  

 


If you think about it, the tree could never be the "tree of knowledge" which implies that they had no knowledge before they ate from it. which makes God unfair and unjust as you can get. How can he ask them to "know" Satan, "know" that he is their "enemy" and above all "know" that disobeying God is an evil act?

First, when God created Adam and Eve He gave them a great amount of knowledge. True, it wasn't that the eating of the Tree of Knowedge would give them knowledge per se.....it was about God forbidding them to eat of this one particular tree...they had the choice...obey or disobey...if they disobeyed their eyes were going to be opened up to the knowledge and subsequent consequences and experiences of Evil....The serpent deceived them into thinking they could actually "be like God" and by eating of the forbidden fruit, falsely attributed the power of imparting a supernatural kind knowledge....God's Infinite knowledge.

 

 

 

 

 

 

on Oct 28, 2008

you keep saying ... it was inspired by God. the thoughts of every human .. is one way or another are "inspired" by God or by "Satan" nothing or no other being is capable of getting into our heads and "inspire" thoughts or words.... Can everyone of us write things and say it is from God?

God's true words were not "inspired" to His messengers Lula. They were delivered to them personally. . Moses recieved those words personally from Him. others by an archangle.

when archangel Gebriel first appeared to Pr. Mohammad, he didnt trust him and he told his wife that he is very disturbed by this being coming to him like that. He told his wife about that ... She had a cousin who was a Jew. She advise her husband to go and meet him and tell him about the angel. Her cousin (his name was Waraqa ben Nofel) asked Pr. Mohammad questions about how that angel looked and how he behaved ... after the discussion he told mohammad ... from what you said .. it looked like it the same angel who came to Moses ...

Lula, all religious scholars and pious people get inspirations ... that does not make what they say words of God. it is their opinions, thoughts ... etc. God's words should be kept unique and separate from that even from the personal words of the prophets themselves. anything else is a corruption of God's authentic word ... and THAT is very dangerous and very misleading.

The Books that came to make up the Holy BIble were written by mere humans, yes, but the thought was under Divine Guidance. Inspiration means that an extraordinary influence was exerted by God that purified, elevated the natures of these writers illumined their understanding and caused them mediately and immediately to write the books and letters that are in the Holy Bible.

I know that as a believer in Islam and the Qur'an you disagree....and understand that when Muslims don't find prophecies of Muhammad's mission in the Old and New Testaments, they charge Jews and Christians with altering or corrupting their Scriptures or as you say above, produce misinformation, etc. I understand you think the Qur'an corrects the biblical account, but you are wrong.

The Qur'an cannot come from the one true God of Abraham becasue it contradicts the Holy Bible...and we both agree God is not a God of confusion or contradiction...besides that....there is only one truth and truth is in possession. BOth the Holy Bible and the Qur'an can't be God's truth for the simple reason they contradict on many points.

I realize that Muslims generally believe that Jews and Christians received genuine revelations, that's why the Qur'anic designation, "People of the Book", (only problem is Muslims believe Christians criminally altered it). Christians have done this by teaching the BLessed Trinity and the Divinity of Christ. "So believe in Allah and HIs messengers, and say not "Three." Cease! (it is) better for you. Allah is only one Allah. Far is it removed from his transcendent Majesty that he should have a Son." Sura 4:171.

Well, the Holy Bible directly contradicts Sura 4:171 and has God the Father (First Person of the Blessed Trinity) Who indeed has one only begotten Son...Christ Jesus (Second Person of the Blessed Trinity).  Another big contradiction between the two is that Islam and Sura 4:157 denies that Jesus was crucified. The list goes on but I'm sure you get my point.

 

on Oct 28, 2008

LULA POSTS:

Christ said, "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever."

THINKALOUD POSTS:

Can you imagine Jesus REALLY saying that? for you to say he "meant" this or that is nonsense. God's words are clear and mean what they say and say what they mean.

Yes, I firmly believe that not only did Crist really say that but also that He literally meant what He said. You must read St.John 6: 30-72 in which Jesus explains to His disciples that He is the Bread of Life.

30 They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou show that we may see and may believe thee? What dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven and giveth life to the world.

34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.

35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me: and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him that sent me.

39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.

41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he: I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father and hath learned cometh forth me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father: but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amenI say unto you: He that believethin me hath everlasting life

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert: and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.

53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.  55 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him.

58 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna and are dead. He that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

60 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum. 61 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? 62 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 63 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


if that quote is God's words as you say ... it means ALL christians should live forever. ... do you see that happening Lula?

No you misinterpret what it means....it doesn't mean all Christians should live forever. It's only Catholics who believe they receive Christ's Body (flesh),Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. Christ this day at Carpharnum was telling His disciples of the Last Supper that would come and He would offer up His body and Blood in His death on the Cross. Christ died for the Redemption of all, but not all will be saved...there are still many who refuse to believe just as Christ said.  

on Oct 28, 2008

So, yes, violence in the name of Islam is occurring everyday around the world.
The problem is we haven't seen TA or Muslims in general, squarely condemn Muslim jihadists for doing these horrific things. Have you noticed this?
Do you abhor these horrific acts of jihadism? Why haven't you condemned them?

I think you are totally confused and uninformed....

Acting in the name of something doesnt mean that "that something" condones the action ... does it? i told you those acts are against Islam ... but you go and list acts by people who claim they are acting in the name of Islam !!!!! think lula ... think.

then you say how come i (and Muslims in general)did not condemn those acts !!!! and how do you know that?

just because you didnt get an email from me and from other Muslims?????

the fact you saying that is a solid proof that your knowledge is severely lacking.

all you know that those people are muslims !!!! did you know that most if not all of them are outlaws in their own countries because of their actions or sermons BEFORE you ever heard of them? Did you know that they escaped after their cells there were destroyed? do you know to where? to Europe and got PROTECTED there ...

Europe and us here in the USA were defending those same people on the ground that their "freedom of speech" and "their human rights" are being violated by those same muslim countries that you say that they never condemned them. they arrested and killed them but the leaders escaped and WE protected them ... you need an Example !!!" Omar Abelruhman" .. the master-mind of the 1993 WTC attack!!!!! Egypt asked the US to send him back to be excuted ... WE REFUSED!!!!!!!!!!

Saudia Arabia asked for ben laden's arrest ... we didnt help ... Egypt asked for Ayman Alzawaheri's arrest and we refused....

In 1994 Mubarak of Egypt called for international conference to contain terrorism (he did that when we didnt help as indicated above).... we ignored him completely .... Ben Laden declared war on us in 1995. .... we even ignored that ...... !!!

and you still say no one condemned them!!!! they didnt condemn them lula ... they criminalized them, they tried them in absentia and they sentenced them to death for their actions ... there not here .... but we ignored all that .... they then turned on us ... now you blaming the muslims for "not condemning them" !!!!

know your facts first before you speak please.

these facts are documented in our media of the early 1990's... that is how i know about them. I was in Saudia arabia when they asked for ben laden arrest ...

just because you dont know it doesnt mean it did not happen lula.

on Oct 28, 2008

Here by what you said (in bold), you apparently don't mean what you say. You just did say that the Tree of Life was not in Sacred Scripture...yet, not only is it there, but there is great meaning behind it's being there of which I tried to explain.

take my word for it lula ... you are really confused.

i didnt say that the current bible talks about the existence of the second tree . I said "there is no such thing as a second tree". i disgreed with what is written there .... disgreeing is one thing ... acusing it of saying something it did not say is totally wrong. you apparently could not differentiate between the two positions.

on Oct 28, 2008

when God created Adam and Eve He gave them a great amount of knowledge. True, it wasn't that the eating of the Tree of Knowedge would give them knowledge per se

if that is the case ... then how is it "tree of knowledge"? it is just a tree. period. no specific function .... God would never say something contradictory ... remember ??? you said that yourself and I agree.... that tells you that whoever called it taht way was not God. that is my point.

I realize that Muslims generally believe that Jews and Christians received genuine revelations, that's why the Qur'anic designation, "People of the Book", (only problem is Muslims believe Christians criminally altered it).

you see ... here again you say things that are incorrect.

it is not Muslims who say that the original was changed !!! it is Qura'n (i.e God) who said that ... and you know what else he told Muslims ..... Qura'n (i.e. God) told muslims ... i am paraphrasing here .... "none of your business, it is I who will judge you and them" ... Muslims are not allowed to even insult the people of the book's way of worshipping God regardlesss of how they do it. It instructs Muslims to discuss things with them in "the best way" and to "respect their places of worship" ... it is "the houses of God" he said.

with all that you say that muslims "criminalize" them????

It is not our business Lula .... It is His .. and His alone.

"So believe in Allah and HIs messengers, and say not "Three." Cease! (it is) better for you. Allah is only one Allah. Far is it removed from his transcendent Majesty that he should have a Son." Sura 4:171.
Well, the Holy Bible directly contradicts Sura 4:171 and has God the Father (First Person of the Blessed Trinity) Who indeed has one only begotten Son.

That is up to you. you are not agreeing or disagreeing with Muslims .... it is between you and Him. we believe that Qura'n is His direct unadultrated word. and He is saying that ... so we believe in it .... but we cant criminalize you ... we are  supposed to discuss things in "the best way" ...

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