Don't point to that danger! You are fearmongering!
Published on January 9, 2007 By greywar In Politics

     I wonder if sheepherders in Anatolia ever had to deal with being accused of fearmongering against wolves?

          Grey the Shepherd "Hey Bobby! That Wolf is getting real close to your sheep! Looks mighty hungry too!"

          Bobby the P.C. Shepherd : "Shut up Grey, you're just rascist against Wolves! Most Wolves don't kill sheep, they just live peacfully in the forest in harmony with nature! I've had enough of your fearmongering ways. Its not enough for you that Moderate Wolves live in peace, you wan them to condemn being a Wolf!"

          Grey : "Heck I'd just like to see the Wolves say that killing sheep is wrong and that the Wolves who do should be condemned."

          Bobby : "Racism! Fearmonger!"

          Grey : "Sigh..."

     I suppose linking to this article from The People.uk is also rascist fearmongering but here it is anyways (emphasis mine):

"A FRESH wave of British-born extremist Muslim clerics is whipping up hatred against their own country on the internet.

These men - who dream of seeing the black flag of Islam flying over 10 Downing Street - were filmed spouting vile messages of fanaticism and violence in sermons in mosques and community centres in Britain.

...

The anti-British or pro-terrorist rants are often mixed in with talks about legitimate Islamic topics.

...

A young cleric called ABU MUWAHID, who appears frequently in clips, lavishes praise on the 9/11 attackers in a talk about prayer.

He says the "fantastic, fabulous, magnificent - whatever word you prefer, whatever word suits you, but any word of praise - soldiers destroyed the two idols of today." (I prefer the words "dead" and "terrorist"- GW)

...

He brands Muslims who are not prepared to fight as hypocrites who will go to hell. "They have no intention to conquer...or to bring the black flag over 10 Downing Street," says Muwahid. (I told you Moderates that you are next on their list - GW)

...

"We do not like non-Muslims. We are required not to like them because they reject Allah and his messengers."

...

To cheers from his audience, he promises: "One day the black flag of Islam is going to be over 10 Downing Street, whether Tony Blair likes it or not."

 

     It is terrible of me to point things like this out put since the organization who spoke out for the Flying Imams (CAIR) can't seem to actually condemn terror organizations I don't feel too bad about it.

     Moderate Muslims : You don't have to denounce Islam, but denouncing terror and killing (even if the people killed are Jews) is a pretty basic requirement if you want anyone but the ACLU to take you seriously. Even Barbara Boxer gets that part.

    Additionally it seems that I am not supposed to point out stories regarding Muslims unless I am pointing out stories about people of other religions committing acts of terror as well. Please post any links you have of current news involving people of other religions: decrying the need to "raise the flag" of their religion over nations, establishing "states with a state", flying planes into buildings, bombing subways, or strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up buses and cafes.

     I already know the KKK does the first two and I condemn them roundly, wholeheartedly, and think them revolting criminals. Ditto for morons who blow up abortion clinics and shoot at physicians. Follow up with others and I will discuss them even though they have already been thoroughly ostracized from their respective community support networks in a very satisfying Hobbesian/Lockean action.

     Please refrain from anything more than a few years old. I must be missing the current string of terror attacks from Buddists, Confucians, Shintoists, Wiccans, and Christians (yes I have heard of the Crusades, keep it in the current century at least if not the last decade).

Site Meter "
Comments (Page 1)
on Jan 09, 2007

I already know the KKK does the first two and I condemn them roundly, wholeheartedly, and think them revolting criminals. Ditto for morons who blow up abortion clinics and shoot at physicians. Follow up with others and I will discuss them even though they have already been thoroughly ostracized from their respective community support networks in a very satisfying Hobbesian/Lockean action.


Usually you and I don't agree on much. But this time I do. This article is 100% on the money.
on Jan 09, 2007


This article is 100% on the money.


Thanks.
on Jan 09, 2007
I heard about some buddhist monks stepping on ants!
on Jan 09, 2007
I don't have a problem when you point out threats. When you vilify Islam, though, you're just showing ignorant bias.
on Jan 09, 2007

When you vilify Islam, though, you're just showing ignorant bias.

I do have to have a reference frame for these articles. I won't go as far as some newspapers go and scrupulously avoid the fact that the people involved ar Muslims, using Muslim religious facilities in Muslim communities to preach violence to Muslim audiences. Islam is as agood a religion as any other to me, but as I pointed out it is the actions of the religious that end up mattering and not the unpracticed dogma or doctrine.

I will vilify Muslim terrorists without hesitation. If you take offense that they are Muslims, take it up with Muslims as my articles usually call for. I want Muslims to police their own as it would be better for all of us.

on Jan 09, 2007
Islam in the UK - Sting finds Hate, Jihad, and Violence
Britain Should Become More Muslim - A Plea for Dhimmitude
Dhimmitude in the UK Can't Be that Bad Right?
British Schools Serving *Only* Halal Meat - PC Gone Wrong
Europe on the Brink of Takeover?



Come on. You're saying you are just 'warning' us about terrorists? I've made strong arguments against your assertion that the problem is Islam, and that Islam itself is a problem. Over and over.

Since you can't combat them, you just wander off to some news site and find something else to misapply to Islam as a whole. We have about as many American muslims as they ahve in Gaza. If Islam were the problem, well, we'd have a LOT of domestic problems.

But we don't. When fundamentalists want to attack us, 99.9% of the time they have to come here to do it. When our homegrown nuts want to, they need to go overseas for aid and comfort. If Islam was the problem that wouldn't be so.

So, go right on banging away, but you are just giving the terrorists a reach-around. They predict that we will lash out at Islam randomly, and we do. They predict that we hate Muslims, whether they are taxi drivers or terrorists, and we certainly appear to.

So, the next time they need to recruit someone and prove that Americans are dishonest when we claim to only have bias against terrorists, maybe they can come here to JU and show them what you guys have to offer. I'll anxiously await your very loud and unignorable denunciation of the next slaughter of Muslims.
on Jan 09, 2007
Bobby the P.C. Shepherd : "Shut up Grey, you're just rascist against Wolves!


Wouldn't this make you specist?

As usual, I have nothing productive to add. Move along, nothing here but bad jokes.
on Jan 09, 2007

I've made strong arguments against your assertion that the problem is Islam

The problem isn't Islam, the problem is both Islamic terroists and Moderate Muslims who either actively support them or passively sit idle and allow their communities to support them.

I am confused Baker - should I simply ignore the fact that the terrorists are overwhelmingly Muslims? That they are using the resources of the Muslim community? That Moderate Muslims seem to have massive problems even saying that the attacks are wrong?

I could care less about Islam or any other religion for that matter. I don't care what the Koran (or any other religious text) says when it comes to terror. I DO care what the Moderate Muslim community is doing about terror from a purely Hobbesian social contract view. It is far easier for Moderate Muslims to root out the terrorists in their ranks with internal pressure than it is for outsiders. If outsiders have to do it their methods will be brutal and invasive as you say. Social contracts work best when groups enforce them internally.

How does calling for Moderates to take action "vilify" Islam? Passive lukewarm discaimers of "it's not us" ring hollow when terrorists are being given shelter, encouragement, material aid, and places of worship to propagate jihad. "I don't like the KKK." means nothing if I am doing all the aforementioned for them.

And yeah you're right, it is me who is the problem with terror not the people spewing hate in mosques, not the guy strapping bombs to his chest, not the folks calliong for the establishment of the new caliphate, not the imams issuing fatwas urging death to cartoonists... Don't know how I could have missed that before.

on Jan 09, 2007
Wouldn't this make you specist?
maybe just "specious"
on Jan 09, 2007

here, this is typical of what we are getting fom the rare Muslim who decides to talk about this issue, from this thread :

he comes in relatively peacefully with

Islam is religious of peace and want peace everywhere. Islam is complete religious which prove the previous religious.

when asked about cases like Daniel Pearl (be warned the Wiki entry is constantly subject to defacement) though he not only won't condemn it we get this :

He deserve punish according to what he did. Daniel case.

The cognitive dissonance between the first post and the second is amazing. The thing is that many extremist Muslims do not believe that "peace" includes the kufr. Few Muslims are willing to disagree or challenge that idea especially in public and especially in any material manner.

on Jan 09, 2007
"I am confused Baker - should I simply ignore the fact that the terrorists are overwhelmingly Muslims?"


Should you ignore the fact that the average murderer in America isn't Muslim? Perhaps you could make the point that if more people were Muslim, there'd be fewer murderers? You realize you're making the exact same argument that people make when they say that the US is more dangerous than bin Laden?

After all, we've killed more people, right? We drop more bombs, right? Never mind the situation behind it, Americans are just more dangerous, because our military kills more people around the world. It hurts to be on the wrong side of that kind of logic, doesn't it?

There are serious problems in the Middle East. The fact that those problems only flourish there, and a few other deeply troubled parts of the word, and Islam is just about everywhere, tells me that the problem isn't Islam. If it were, the millions of Muslims in America would be a threat, not peaceful citizens.
on Jan 09, 2007
There are serious problems in the Middle East. The fact that those problems only flourish there, and a few other deeply troubled parts of the word, and Islam is just about everywhere, tells me that the problem isn't Islam.


It seems to me that the middle east and the "few other deeply troubled parts of the world" have one thing in common that the rest of the world doesn't have: an Islamic majority. This leads me to the conclusion that when Islam reaches "critical mass", its innate xenophobia (misoxenia?) kicks in and causes violence.

Unless by "deeply troubled" you simply mean having things like hate-mongering, anti-christian indoctrination, suicide bombings, riots, etc. In which case I would have to wonder why England and Spain and France are being lumped in with Iran, Iraq and the rest of the middle east.
on Jan 09, 2007
"It seems to me that the middle east and the "few other deeply troubled parts of the world" have one thing in common that the rest of the world doesn't have: an Islamic majority."


One thing? Hrm. Most American slums have something in common. Using your logic I might say that if you allow minorities to reach a "critical mass" then it is inevitable that their neighborhoods will be dangerous and poverty-ridden. Race is even a factor in the danger of such places, since as a "white boy" I'm a lot more apt to be picked out on the street.

But then we're smarter than that now. We know that slums have other things in common, too. They have poverty, lack of education, drug abuse, criminal oppression and even involvement in government, etc. Sound familiar?

The Middle East is one big slum. Sure, just like the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, the governments in the most oppressive nations in the Middle East, and the thuggish terrorist organizations use a twisted form of Islam to cement their control. The reason such is possible, though, are the REAL problems.

I think you're making the same ignorant, bigoted point people made about Blacks in the 60's. Once you started seeing the Black Panthers and other violent race groups, racists started saying "told you so" and that if you give black people freedom they'll out breed us and inevitably destroy our culture, yadda yadda. It isn't any more true for Islam.

on Jan 09, 2007

If it were, the millions of Muslims in America would be a threat, not peaceful citizens.

Millions passively enable the actual threat posed by mere thousands. you can't field signifgant force without supoprt and networking. Active opposition is a world different than passive tolerance.

The U.S. *is* more dangeous than Bin Laden by an order of magnitude. So are the Japanese or any other nation with a military. It's a meaningless statement.  Thing is that the US and other are nations and Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist group.

average murderer in America isn't Muslim?

Muslims as a percent of US pop = .5% so it would be freaking shocking if the "average murderer" were Muslim.

Weren't we talking about terror? Want to compare percentage of terrorists from one religion  to distribution of murderers from one ethnic group? The terror percentage is much higher.

The fact that those problems only flourish there

 

Are you kidding me? The russian schoolkids? Indonesia? Thailand? IIR 9/11 was here and the Tube bombings were in the UK. Let's see, the Madrid bombings? German nightclub? Kenya? Links Where Wahabbism goes, so goes terror. If you can't grasp that migratory fact then there is no help for you.

 

 

 

on Jan 09, 2007
"Millions passively enable the actual threat posed by mere thousands. you can't field signifgant force without supoprt and networking. Active opposition is a world different than passive tolerance."


YOu've got the numbers here, where's the result? You have legal firearms. You have bountiful amounts of material to make explosives, even chemical weapons. We've had Christian racist militias arm themselves to the teeth, try to annex Idaho, marching in the streets, etc.

Yet... oddly... I haven't seen Muslims doing that. They could. They could have their little wacko getaways just like our racist organizations do. They don't though. Don't you find that odd, if Islam tends naturally toward that sort of thing?

"Muslims as a percent of US pop = .5% so it would be freaking shocking if the "average murderer" were Muslim."


Muslims are the vast majority of people in the Middle East. It would be freaking shocking if terrorists there were Christian. The IRA was Irish... what a coincidence...

"Are you kidding me? The russian schoolkids? Indonesia? Thailand? IIR 9/11 was here and the Tube bombings were in the UK. Let's see, the Madrid bombings? German nightclub? Kenya? Links Where Wahabbism goes, so goes terror. If you can't grasp that migratory fact then there is no help for you."


EXACTLY. Glad you could make my point. Where the sicknesses in the Middle East go, like Wahabism, there goes terrorism. Not Islam, mind you, but Wahabism, or Palistinian terrorist philosophies, etc. Things tied to culture, politics, economics.

If what you are saying was true, you'd be able to list a ton of stuff that doesn't have ties to the Middle East or Pakistan. You can't, though. Muslims have been living here for generations, and oddly enough our Arab neighborhoods don't look like Gaza. Oddly enough the militant, anti-Jew infrastructure in the US calls itself Christian.

Christianity to blame? Correlation doesn't equal causation. If you can't grasp that fact, then you're no different than people who blame race for urban crime, who blame Christianity for child molestation, etc, religion for all the world's ills, etc.



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